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Thread: Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

  1. #31
    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
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    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    The condemnation they were ordained to in Jude 1:4 is described in Vs 13 Jude 1:13

    13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    Now some may object to the meaning of the word ordained in Jude 1:4, because the word also means:

    a) I write previously (aforetime); I write above (already), (b) I depict or portray openly, (c) I designate beforehand.

    Simply to write beforehand . Well, ok then, who was it written by ? Who wrote here Rev 13:8

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Obviously names were written in the book of life Rev 20:15, so who wrote them if not God ? Or if we say men wrote of the condemnation of Jude 1:4, it would have been written by inspiration of God, they were moved by the Holy Ghost, who is God, so that which was written was the Mind of God, the Purpose of God, which is Eternal !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
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    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Another scripture that teaches some men were ordained, predestinated to condemnation is Jude 1:4

    4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Ordained by who ? By the Lord God ! That word ordained means to:

    designate, appoint, assign, determine

    So God designated them to this condemnation before they were even born. So they were born into the world to suffer this condemnation by the Purpose of God !

    True, and He even predestinated every word they shall speak, every thought of their mind, and every action they shall ever perfom in the flesh. So they shall be accordingly punished in the Day of Judgment, even to the degree that God has ordained for them according to His Purpose.

    ~~~~~
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    I don't know if it's possible to determine "Degrees" of punishment in the "Lake of Fire?" Where is your undeniable proof? Believe me, when I say, I hope you're correct, but, I highly doubt it. Remember also who was being spoken to, the House of Israel, in those verses you posted.
    Are you saying that you accept the passage I quoted as proof that Israelites under the previous dispensation will be punished with various degrees of punishment but that it isn't proof that everyone else will be?

    The passage conveys a moral principle, not a dispensational distinctive. God is just. A person's punishment will fit their sin. That's all that passage is teaching and that's all I'm suggesting.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The condemnation they were ordained to in Jude 1:4 is described in Vs 13 Jude 1:13

    13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    Now some may object to the meaning of the word ordained in Jude 1:4, because the word also means:

    a) I write previously (aforetime); I write above (already), (b) I depict or portray openly, (c) I designate beforehand.

    Simply to write beforehand . Well, ok then, who was it written by ? Who wrote here Rev 13:8

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Obviously names were written in the book of life Rev 20:15, so who wrote them if not God ? Or if we say men wrote of the condemnation of Jude 1:4, it would have been written by inspiration of God, they were moved by the Holy Ghost, who is God, so that which was written was the Mind of God, the Purpose of God, which is Eternal !
    B57,

    How would you answer if an unbeliever asked you the following questions...


    What is justice?

    When you hear of a judgment from a normal human court of law, how do you decide whether that judgment was just or unjust? Or when a parent punishes their children for some wrong doing or rewards them for doing rightly, how do you know a good parent from a bad one?

    Is it the parent that sends their child to their room when they talk back the good parent or is it the one who punches the child in the stomach (so as to not leave bruises) for the same offense?

    Is it the parent that gives a child anything he asks for the good parent or is it the one who rewards the child when he's done something worthy of being rewarded?

    Does the same or at least a similar standard of justice apply to God?

    If so, in what way is the God you describe just?

    If not, in what way is it meaningful to call the God you describe just and what does it mean when the bible instructs us to be godly?


    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Are you saying that you accept the passage I quoted as proof that Israelites under the previous dispensation will be punished with various degrees of punishment but that it isn't proof that everyone else will be?

    The passage conveys a moral principle, not a dispensational distinctive. God is just. A person's punishment will fit their sin. That's all that passage is teaching and that's all I'm suggesting.
    Perhaps it's necessary for you to "break down" that particular passage and examine it a little further? Is it REALLY speaking of "Degrees of Punishment" in the "Lake of Fire" or are you reading that into it? You must also remember, this passage was meant for the House of Israel only not to the Gentiles.

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    Over 1500 post club nikolai_42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Are you saying that you accept the passage I quoted as proof that Israelites under the previous dispensation will be punished with various degrees of punishment but that it isn't proof that everyone else will be?

    The passage conveys a moral principle, not a dispensational distinctive. God is just. A person's punishment will fit their sin. That's all that passage is teaching and that's all I'm suggesting.
    What if man's sin is worse than he conceives it to be? Is he less responsible because he doesn't understand all the ramifications of it - yet still knows it to be wrong?
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nonon View Post
    I think you're jumping the gun in saying that it's saying that some are appointed to wrath. I believe this verse is saying the exact opposite you are.
    Welcome to B57's world of Calvinism !! it's a false world

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed
    tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

    All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
    How does He choose who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    If by "hyper-Calvinists" you mean consistent Calvinists, I agree with you. I, for one, like it when people are not afraid of the logical implications of their beliefs. People who are consistent, as evil as they might be, have at least a portion of their mind intact. It's like I can see a flicker of light somewhere in the darkness of their mind and it causes me to respect them more than I would otherwise.

    Ayn Rand was a terrific example of this. That woman was nothing if she wasn't fearlessly consistent. She didn't give a rat's rear-end what the consequences were or where her mind was going to take her, she just went where her obviously brilliant mind took her and stood there, proud as could be. Of course, Rand, even as a strident, God hating atheist, was far closer to being right about the nature of existence than B57 and Nanja are, and neither of them can hold a candle to Rand's genius level mind, but a similar ruthless courage of their convictions seems to exists, which strikes me as a lining of silver around what is otherwise a very dark cloud indeed.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Ayn Rand was an ungodly humanist with an unrepentant and sinful mind. She was accursed by God and at enmity with God, and is no role model for anyone professing Christianity.

    As to the subject at hand, I believe in double predestination while I deny God is the author of sin. That is because I can understand the difference between ordaining and causing.

    God created man.

    Man sinned.

    God ordained both, but Adam is held responsible for causing sin and death to enter creation. Romans 5:12
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    How does He choose who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?
    Stick with the language of the bible (Ephesians 1:3-14), and the matter becomes more clear . . .

    God knew ANY and ALL men created in His image (conscious and morally accountable) would never be able to be Godly or live up to His holy standards, so before He created, He chose to shelter a remnant of created mankind for rescue in Christ Jesus from their deserved destiny (death).

    That decree was a matter of pure power and grace.

    Instead of angrily resisting the fact that God so chose to save many from death, and shaking the fist at Him for not universally saving all, sinners should offer thanksgiving for His saving grace, and hope to comprehend all His pure workings in the day when we will finally know Him as He knows us. I John 3:2-3
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Stick with the language of the bible (Ephesians 1:3-14), and the matter becomes more clear . . .

    God knew ANY and ALL men created in His image (conscious and morally accountable) would never be able to be Godly or live up to His holy standards, so before He created, He chose to shelter a remnant of created mankind for rescue in Christ Jesus from their deserved destiny (death).

    That decree was a matter of pure power and grace.

    Instead of angrily resisting the fact that God so chose to save many from death, and shaking the fist at Him for not universally saving all, sinners should offer thanksgiving for His saving grace, and hope to comprehend all His pure workings in the day when we will finally know Him as He knows us. I John 3:2-3
    Pure Calvinist Drivel -

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Pure Calvinist Drivel -
    Why are you shaking your fist?

    What do you actually disagree with?
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    nanja

    True, and He even predestinated every word they shall speak, every thought of their mind, and every action they shall ever perfom in the flesh.
    Agreed, in fact, God ordained the sins they would be condemned for !

    So they shall be accordingly punished in the Day of Judgment, even to the degree that God has ordained for them according to His Purpose.
    Yes !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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