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Thread: Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

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    Remember though Clete, the Bible says: the fool has said in his heart, there is no God. (Paraphrased) Therefore, Ayn was a fool according to the word of God.

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    If by hell, you are relating to the pagan myth where our loving God tortures all unbelievers eternally, the answer is no. If by predestinate, you mean that God picks and chooses based on His whims, the answer is no.
    Last edited by Ac28; September 13th, 2016 at 05:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ac28 View Post
    If by hell, you mean the pagan myth that God tortures all unbelievers eternally, the answer is no. If by predestinate, you mean that God picks and chooses based on His whims, the answer is no.
    Hey bro, how have you been? Good to see you over here

    You ever get anywhere with BAB2 over there, lol

    Anyway, just wanted to say hey...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Only Calvinists who are flatly ignorant of Calvinist doctrine fail to charge God with this sort of injustice.

    It isn't merely that Calvinism teaches that God sends people to Hell before they've done anything to deserve it, it teaches that God did so for no reason at all other than that it pleased Him to do so.

    Calvin's own words state it most clearly...
    “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

    “Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

    “We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

    "All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)

    As for the bible. It obviously does NOT teach this foolishness about God. What the Bible does teach about God is the He is righteous and that His judgements are just. The only way to get Calvinism out of the text of Scripture is to bring the doctrine to the text. The above two posts stand as an excellent example of exactly that. The entire system is one huge example of biblical eisegesis.

    Here's the bottom line.

    The bible teaches that God is just. That much is not in dispute. We can, therefore, say that either Calvinism is false or the bible is false. If the bible is false then the whole of Christianity, including Calvinism, is false. Either way, Calvinism is false. Calvinism cannot survive the simple notion that God is just.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Excellent Post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    The Bible teaches the truth of reprobation, in that God has created men and hath decreed their everlasting destruction, which are called in scripture vessels of wrath, and vessels to dishonor Rom 9:22

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    The vessels of wrath, in the purpose of God, while they live, are being fitted for destruction. So theres no hope of salvation from this destruction as long as they live, for that would be contrary to Gods purpose for them !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    cr

    If God desires all men to be saved can the answer to the OP only be, NO!
    That quote applies to the elect, the vessels of mercy, not the vessels of wrath He fits for destruction !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Now did God ordain some to destruction because of sin ? The answer is by no means, for God is not subject to the actions of His creatures, but His Purpose is the primary cause that some are ordained to destruction, however He decreed sin to enter to serve His purpose. Sin served Gods purpose as it related to the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath ! For all things, to include the actions of His creatures, serve the good pleasure of His will ! Eph 1:5,11

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Remember though Clete, the Bible says: the fool has said in his heart, there is no God. (Paraphrased) Therefore, Ayn was a fool according to the word of God.
    That is unquestionably true, but being a fool does not require being stupid, nor does it mean that everything an unbeliever says is incorrect or even foolish.

    Which is the bigger fool? The one who denies God's existence because of stupid doctrines taught by Calvinists and Catholics or the one who believes that God punishes people forever for no reason and charges God with every manner of evil injustice?

    I'd have a very difficult time answering that question with any confidence. Especially if the unbeliever I'm comparing the Calvinist too happened to be Ayn Rand. I've said many times that Rand was the most Christian atheist that ever lived. With a just a few prominent exceptions, her ethics, economics and politics were all at least as conservative as any Christian conservative you've ever met. In fact, every error she did make (and there were some whoppers) had everything to do with the fact that she rejected the existence of God.

    It is tragic that a mind like that was sent to Hell because of a rejection of doctrines that the bible doesn't even teach. It just goes to show you that doctrine matters. It really matters a lot because there are people out there who, because of our influence, may either accept or reject God based on the doctrines we claim that the bible teaches.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    B57,

    I have a serious question for you. I'm not trying to trick you or even to argue with you. I'm really asking and would genuinely appreciate an honest answer.


    What is justice?

    When you hear of a judgment from a normal human court of law, how do you decide whether that judgment was just or unjust? Or when a parent punishes their children for some wrong doing or rewards them for doing rightly, how do you know a good parent from a bad one?

    Is it the parent that sends their child to their room when they talk back the good parent or is it the one who punches the child in the stomach (so as to not leave bruises) for the same offense?

    Is it the parent that gives a child anything he asks for the good parent or is it the one who rewards the child when he's done something worthy of being rewarded?

    Does the same or at least a similar standard of justice apply to God?

    If so, in what way is the God you describe just?

    If not, in what way is it meaningful to call the God you describe just and what does it mean when the bible instructs us to be godly?


    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    TOL Subscriber Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    That is unquestionably true, but being a fool does not require being stupid, nor does it mean that everything an unbeliever says is incorrect or even foolish.

    Which is the bigger fool? The one who denies God's existence because of stupid doctrines taught by Calvinists and Catholics or the one who believes that God punishes people forever for no reason and charges God with every manner of evil injustice?

    I'd have a very difficult time answering that question with any confidence. Especially if the unbeliever I'm comparing the Calvinist too happened to be Ayn Rand. I've said many times that Rand was the most Christian atheist that ever lived. With a just a few prominent exceptions, her ethics, economics and politics were all at least as conservative as any Christian conservative you've ever met. In fact, every error she did make (and there were some whoppers) had everything to do with the fact that she rejected the existence of God.

    It is tragic that a mind like that was sent to Hell because of a rejection of doctrines that the bible doesn't even teach. It just goes to show you that doctrine matters. It really matters a lot because there are people out there who, because of our influence, may either accept or reject God based on the doctrines we claim that the bible teaches.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    I'm sure you would agree if Ayn rejected the Gospel until she took her last gasp of breath, she, no doubt will stand before God and be judged by her works as Revelation 20:12 speaks of. There will be no mercy at that judgment for the unbelievers. A person doesn't end up in the "Lake of Fire" because of their sins, they wind up there because they rejected the Gospel. This is one of the fundamentals of the faith.

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    B57 and Nanja are "Hyper-Calvinists" and believe that God creates ALL sin.

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    Calvinism is a false belief system created by John "The Pope of Geneva" Calvin and his ilk. It's one of Satan's counterfeit religions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    I'm sure you would agree if Ayn rejected the Gospel until she took her last gasp of breath, she, no doubt will stand before God and be judged by her works as Revelation 20:12 speaks of. There will be no mercy at that judgment for the unbelievers. A person doesn't end up in the "Lake of Fire" because of their sins, they wind up there because they rejected the Gospel. This is one of the fundamentals of the faith.
    Of course! But puting your faith in a non-existent unjust god will do you no better.

    And not everyone's punishment in Hell will be identical....

    Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Of course! But puting your faith in a non-existent unjust god will do you no better.

    And not everyone's punishment in Hell will be identical....

    Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    I don't know if it's possible to determine "Degrees" of punishment in the "Lake of Fire?" Where is your undeniable proof? Believe me, when I say, I hope you're correct, but, I highly doubt it. Remember also who was being spoken to, the House of Israel, in those verses you posted.

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    Another scripture that teaches some men were ordained, predestinated to condemnation is Jude 1:4

    4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Ordained by who ? By the Lord God ! That word ordained means to:

    designate, appoint, assign, determine

    So God designated them to this condemnation before they were even born. So they were born into the world to suffer this condemnation by the Purpose of God !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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