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Thread: Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

  1. #181
    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Another scripture that more than indicates that God purposely created some men for destruction and wrath in the final day of Judgment is Rom 9:21-22

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    Its revealed here that the Sovereign God has the absolute right to make, create, fashion, construct, to author and appoint men to destruction, dishonor or disgrace.

    The word dishonour is the greek word atimia and means:

    disgrace, dishonor; a dishonorable use.

    Now the word disgrace, the english word means:

    the loss of respect, honor, or esteem; ignominy; shame:
    the disgrace of criminals.

    Which coincides with what God says in Daniel regarding the reprobate raised in the last day Dan 12:2

    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


    Now they were created by God n purpose to suffer eternal shame and contempt !


    Amen ! The reprobate world will be raised on the last day to everlasting shame and contempt Dan. 12:2 because it was God's Purpose, Design, Perfect Will and Pleasure Is. 46:10 to predestinate His vessels of wrath to believe a lie and be eternally condemned.

    John 12:40
    He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    2 Thes. 2:10-12
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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  3. #182
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    Amen ! The reprobate world will be raised on the last day to everlasting shame and contempt Dan. 12:2 because it was God's Purpose, Design, Perfect Will and Pleasure Is. 46:10 to predestinate His vessels of wrath to believe a lie and be eternally condemned.

    John 12:40
    He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    2 Thes. 2:10-12
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    Blasphemy!

    God is not unjust!

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  5. #183
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Blasphemy!

    God is not unjust!
    Rabbit trail !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Rabbit trail !
    Directly responsive.

    God does not want people to believe a lie. He most certainly didn't predestine people to do so in order to punish them for it.

    What kind is maniac monster do you believe in! Adolf Hitler was more just than your blasphemous version of God!

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Notice the total silence that you get in response to any argument against Calvinism that is based on the principle of justice.

    Part of the lack of response here has to do with all these fools ignoring my posts but I've noticed it for years before that tactic was initiated. Even as far back as Bob Enyart's debate against Lamerson. There never is any substantive response to the argument.

    I really feel like this is the key issue in this debate. Is God just or is He arbitrary? He cannot be both. Calvinists want you to think He can be both but He can't. The two concepts are opposites. God is not a God of confusion and contradiction. God is truth, which is to say that He is consistent; consistently righteous, loving, kind and just. Any doctrine that undermines the righteousness of God is false and an abomination.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed
    tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

    All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    Proverbs 19:21
    Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Astounding how these people think that reading your doctrine into scripture is to "receive them honestly".

    Truly astounding!

    And then the response is just more of the same! They take a verse that teaches that it is fruitless to be at cross purposes with God and make that into Calvinism.

    How does it not occur to them while writing the post that they also believe that the plans in a person's heart are just as predestine and immutably set in place by the self same god that is going to prevail over those plans. That is, of course, only if the plans that their god predestined to be in the person's heart were in opposition to their god's purposes. But then, if that's the case, one should wonder what was the purpose of predestining those cross purposes in the person's heart in the first place and just how much glory does a god derived from "winning" such a fixed game anyway? Even if the purposes in the person's heart prevailed, they were their god's purposes anyway, right? Who is their god prevailing against but himself?

    But then again, you can't really expect rational thinking from people who spend their lives undermining reason to support their doctrine.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; March 24th, 2018 at 06:51 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    Hey, Beloved57 and Nanja:

    Do you tell your children when you put them to bed that God loves them?

    Or

    Do you tell them that they might be ones that were born only so God could send them to hell and there isn't a darn thing they can do about it?

    Tambora and I are still waiting for an answer.
    'Funny' how this never got an answer...

    I have encountered Calvinists who have explicitly stated that if their own children weren't part of the 'elect' they'd gleefully rejoice in their suffering as part of God's plan.

    Heart warming stuff.

    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
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    A person shall speak in the manner which God has prepared their heart to speak.

    Prov. 16:1
    The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    A person shall speak in the manner which God has prepared their heart to speak.

    Prov. 16:1
    The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
    These lunatics really do believe that their god is an arbitrary monster.

    Not a chance that they're saved. The god they worship does not exist.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Does this look like a God who predestinates men to go to hell?

    2 Peter 3:9 King James Version (KJV)

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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  23. #192
    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    Amen ! The reprobate world will be raised on the last day to everlasting shame and contempt Dan. 12:2 because it was God's Purpose, Design, Perfect Will and Pleasure
    Does this tell us why this happens to them? NO? then it is still an open question!

    Is. 46:10 to predestinate His vessels of wrath to believe a lie and be eternally condemned.
    Still does NOT give any reason for this decision of HIS to do things this way...

    Possible Reasons:
    1. No reason. HIS mere capriciousness.
    2. HIS personal reason that HE chooses some but not others to be saved...but never mentioned.
    3. A reason based upon the choice of the created person, a pre-earthly life reason ....

    1. Merit based Election before Creation of the physical universe?
    The basis can not be, as some have suggested, some merit in the creatures, first because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and second, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life, but rather on HIS unmerited favour:

    Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth... Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy. Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not "before life" love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.


    2. Election to Damnation before Creation Serves HIS Purpose?
    Others have suggested that GOD "before life" loved only some because this is more beneficial for HIS purposes than if HE before life loved everyone. The explanation goes something like this: The loved ones' eternal joy is directly proportional to their knowledge - appreciation of GOD and the wonderfulness of their salvation. Therefore an increase of good comes forth from the eternal damnation of some persons for by their damnation, that is, the outcome of Adam's decision to sin, and HIS "before life" decision not to love these persons, two types of eternal blessings supposedly occur for the rest:

    First,
    a fuller appreciation of several of God's attributes is made possible, which opportunity wouldn't be possible if all lived forever, that is, if HE "before life" loved them all. These attributes are usually said to be HIS justness (retribution - wrath) holiness and omnipotence.
    Secondly, the truth regarding the elect's end apart from Christ's salvation is made fully known, which full knowledge makes possible the fuller appreciation of HIS salvation, for this salvation (hence, HIS mercy too) would not be so fully appreciated without the graphic depiction of both ends.
    Third, Others even go so far as to say that their damnation is absolutely necessary in order that the purpose of GOD be able to be fulfilled by HIS elect, and they offer this explanation: In order to live in eternity with GOD, we must live fully in the truth, which necessity necessitates having a perfect appreciation of GOD's attributes and HIS salvation, and that this perfect appreciation by HIS elect creatures is made possible first, only through witnessing HIS triumph over and judgement upon HIS enemies, and second, only when HIS perfection and our life in Christ are contrasted with the complete imperfections of the damned and the end we would have had, had HE not saved us.


    Now, these are very hard positions to hold, for they fail on many accounts.

    First, they both fail to answer or give a reasonable basis for why HE chose the particular ones HE did and why HE did not choose the rest. In other words, they both deny the faithful and unselfish character of GOD's love, in that they limit it without just cause and look on it as somewhat capricious.

    Secondly, they both necessitate the unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential. In other words we must accept that in GOD’'S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless [and the more sinful (or sick) the better!].

    Third, they both fail to satisfactorily answer the question of how the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect than would be the damnation of but one, since it is the moral depravity of those in hell that is supposed to make for the increased appreciation / perfection and not the quantity of persons therein.

    Fourthly, they both put a very small value on the worth of the individual creature in the eyes of GOD.

    Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge / forelove does not include everyone can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures and since a reasonable answer has not been put forward for why GOD does it particularly, we are left with but two conclusions: We must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable, capricious, chance.

    This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before life" love. [Aside: as I understand it, this is Calvin's failure to understand this doctrine correctly.] GOD's election / foreknowing is thus based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we cannot find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

    Now, according to preconception theology, PCE, the "before life" love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-life approval of some and rejection of the rest is based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature (in Sheol, before physical creation) and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM. Therein is the reason why HE loved some "before this life" and why HE did not love the rest.

    Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves and some had not. Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly, (angels) and others only if HE was infallibly gracious (election) to them (His fallen church, the sinful good seed). Yes, and He predestined these to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other evil ones for the Day of Judgement and established them for the correction of the fallen elect.

    Now, I ask you, which doctrine is the more scriptural and reasonable and compatible with the attributes of GOD?

    It gives good reason to the decision of GOD to fulfill these verses literally!
    John 12:40
    He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    2 Thes. 2:10-12
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  24. #193
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Does this look like a God who predestinates men to go to hell?

    2 Peter 3:9 King James Version (KJV)

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    Unfortunately, the bible has no effect on them, BR. It's Aristotle and Plato that they're interested in. Or more precisely, Augustine's Classical interpretation of the bible. Luther successful extracted a lot of the extra-biblical Roman Catholic teachings from the Christian faith but Calvin made certain that a similar process didn't occur with the extra-biblical Greek philosophy that had made its way into the Christian faith via Augustine (primarily). If anyone in Christianity believes that God is immutable or that He predestined every event before time began, they do so because of Augustine and his admiration of Aristotle and Plato.

    Compare the follow two texts...

    (Socrates) It is universally true then, that that which is in the best state by nature or art or both admits least alteration by something else. (Adeimantus) So it seems. (Socrates) But God, surely and everything that belongs to God is in every way in the best possible state. . . . Then does he [God] change himself for the better and to something fairer, or for the worse and to something uglier than himself? It must necessarily be for the worse if he is changed . . . the gods themselves are incapable of change. . . . Then God is altogether simple and true in deed and word, and neither changes himself nor deceives others. - Plato, Republic I, Loeb Classical Library, Book II, pp. 191-197.

    He [God] cannot change for the better, for He is already perfect; being perfect, He cannot change for the worse. A.W. Pink - The Immutability of God

    “no change is possible in God, since a change is either for better or for worse. But in God, as the absolute Perfection, improvement and deterioration are both equally impossible… - Louis Berkhof Systematic Theology

    There are literally hundreds of such quotations. Their argument for the immutability of their god (the basis for their entire doctrinal construct) is Aristotle's argument - period.

    All the stuff in the bible about the real God changing His mind and being convinced by people to do one thing instead of another (not to mention becoming a man and dying) are all explained away as figurative or whatever. Their allegiance is to Aristotle, not the bible.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
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    ttruscott

    #192
    Does this tell us why this happens to them?

    See post #179.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed
    tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

    All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
    You are incorrect.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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