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View Poll Results: Are There Saints In Heaven?

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Thread: Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

  1. #256
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Are you accusing Jesus of giving some false vision? The vision was not false. That passage proves our spirits live on after the death of our bodies.
    Good point. That's what God told Adam isn't it, that if he sinned he would live forever.

    The brain is part of the body, a spirit without a body is a no-brainer. Right?

  2. #257
    Fiddle Dee Dee Tambora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I would assume that Moses and Elijah were dead while Jesus walked the earth. I suppose that they could have been raised before this time but to me that seems less likely than Christ's explanation that what they saw on the Mount of Transfiguration was a vision.

    Matthew 17:9 KJV
    (9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


    Hypothetically, if Moses and Elijah had been walking side by side through the streets of Jerusalem, how would anyone have recognized them? You might recognize Abraham Lincoln or George Washington because their faces show on money, but the Jews didn't keep pictures of people at all. With that in mind, look at the verses that come next:

    Matthew 17:10-12 KJV
    (10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    (11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
    (12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.


    If they had seen the literal manifestation of Elijah, why are they asking about Elijah like this now? The Elijah that Jesus talks of when he explains to them shows that it was intended to be understood in a symbolic context.

    Matthew 17:13 KJV
    (13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

    The context (and Christ's explanation) does point towards this being a symbolic vision, rather than a literal appearance of specific persons. Thus my assumption that Moses and Elijah remained dead and buried during this time, rather than being specifically raised for a cameo appearance.
    I can understand the thought process you present about 'visions', and it is something to consider.

    Usually when a person in scripture is witnessing a 'vision' they are in sleep or trance-like state of being.
    I don't see that as being the case when the disciples saw Jesus with Moses and Elijah.
    It is written as if they are fully awake and aware, even to the point of being worried if they should build a tent for them.
    And they hear the voice of the LORD and are so afraid that they fell on their faces.
    None of this seems to imply that they were asleep or in a trance when this took place.

    What type of body they had when the disciples saw them is unknown.
    It is a good assumption to think their old flesh bodies were still in the grave, as was David's.
    It is my assumption that what the disciples saw was their spirits, and not their resurrected bodies.
    One of those rare instances when the human eye can see the spiritual realm, as when Elijah saw the army of angels all around him and asked GOD to open the eyes of his servant so he could see them also. 2 Kings 6:17
    It was really happening, and was not just a dream.

    But I leave my options open for further study.

    I have seen or heard many types of explanation as to the importance of this story, and what it's intended message revealed.
    They seem incomplete to me, as if there is something more to the story.

    I don't think John the Baptist being spoken of as Elijah has anything to do with this story.
    As he is said to have come in the spirit of Elijah. Luke 1:17

    Good study!
    Thanks for your responses.

    For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    Good point. That's what God told Adam isn't it, that if he sinned he would live forever.

    The brain is part of the body, a spirit without a body is a no-brainer. Right?
    Just answer the question. Did Jesus give a false vision?
    I have already explained it to you many times that a body dying is experiencing death---even when the spirit lives on.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  4. #259
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Sin is spiritual. Jesus died physically and spiritually.

    We all die once, but thanks to Jesus we need not die twice.

  5. #260
    Over 1000 post club way 2 go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Did you keep reading, Way 2 Go? What does the word "all" mean to you?
    context

    in context all does not mean every one as Enoch did not see death

    Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    Sin is spiritual. Jesus died physically and spiritually.

    We all die once, but thanks to Jesus we need not die twice.
    Jesus didn't die Spiritually; he went to prison/hell in his Spirit.

    Tell us all how Jesus raise himself if he no longer existed. lol
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    That was about not seeing death in his physical body; he was taken up in his spirit without experiencing death of his body. That does not mean his body went to heaven.
    no.

    Gen 5:20 Thus all the days of Jared were 962 years, and he died.
    Gen 5:21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he fathered Methuselah.
    Gen 5:22 Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:23 Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years.
    Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

  8. #263
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Tell us all how Jesus raise himself if he no longer existed. lol
    "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11)

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You are a soul sleep believer, a doctrine of death.
    So you believe Jesus taught an evil doctrine.

    Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
    Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
    Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
    Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

    Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: (decay)
    Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.(decay)

    1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Only then shall we be forever with the Lord--

    Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Looks like you prefer the doctrines of devils.

    LA
    Last edited by Lazy afternoon; July 16th, 2017 at 07:41 PM.
    My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

  10. #265
    Over 3000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of Elohim, and for the testimony which they held".

    Every time you post you show your blind ignorance.
    There's nothing inconsistent between Jamie's statement and said passage.

    Besides this, you do acknowledge that the entire book of Revelation uses a wealth of symbolic imagery? Horses and horsemen, multi-headed beasts, and the images of people that were slain crying out, "How long until we be avenged?"

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    There's nothing inconsistent between Jamie's statement and said passage.

    Besides this, you do acknowledge that the entire book of Revelation uses a wealth of symbolic imagery? Horses and horsemen, multi-headed beasts, and the images of people that were slain crying out, "How long until we be avenged?"
    I understand Revelation. That is why I quoted it.

  12. #267
    Over 3000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I can understand the thought process you present about 'visions', and it is something to consider.

    Usually when a person in scripture is witnessing a 'vision' they are in sleep or trance-like state of being.
    I don't see that as being the case when the disciples saw Jesus with Moses and Elijah.
    It is written as if they are fully awake and aware, even to the point of being worried if they should build a tent for them.
    And they hear the voice of the LORD and are so afraid that they fell on their faces.
    None of this seems to imply that they were asleep or in a trance when this took place.

    What type of body they had when the disciples saw them is unknown.
    It is a good assumption to think their old flesh bodies were still in the grave, as was David's.
    It is my assumption that what the disciples saw was their spirits, and not their resurrected bodies.
    One of those rare instances when the human eye can see the spiritual realm, as when Elijah saw the army of angels all around him and asked GOD to open the eyes of his servant so he could see them also. 2 Kings 6:17
    It was really happening, and was not just a dream.

    But I leave my options open for further study.

    I have seen or heard many types of explanation as to the importance of this story, and what it's intended message revealed.
    They seem incomplete to me, as if there is something more to the story.

    I don't think John the Baptist being spoken of as Elijah has anything to do with this story.
    As he is said to have come in the spirit of Elijah. Luke 1:17

    Good study!
    Thanks for your responses.
    Thank you for the kind style of response. We need more of that on these boards.

    Usually when a person in scripture is witnessing a 'vision' they are in sleep or trance-like state of being.
    I'm not sure how relevant that consideration may be. It's not a question of whether the disciples all saw the same thing, and I don't think it matters whether the vision reached them through their eyes or whether it was directly overlaid on top of their brain. Likewise, it could be a physical manifestation or vision granted of the spirit realm, such as the case of Elijah that you mentioned. The elements that I note are:

    1) that to be consistent with other parts of scripture, there is no life outside of resurrection.
    2) that although it is with God's prerogative to raise ahead of schedule for a specific purpose and as such remains a possibility, this would be a special exception, rather than the rule (Matthew 27:52-53)
    3) the more pressing implication of the term vision, to me, is that whatever they saw likely had symbolic meaning

    I recognize that point one (1) above may be subject for debate considering the nature of this thread. However, regardless of where one stands on that point, I acknowledge that it could be possible that this was the literal Moses and Elijah, specifically raised for this appearance.

    Yet, I think this is unlikely, considering the nature of visions in general. If we consider the most well known vision of the entire scripture, the book of Revelation, it is filled with images of people and things. While some of these people and things are most certainly real, the images of them likely were not. For example,

    1) Horses are real things. Yet I think it is unlikely that God recruited real horses to play their parts with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

    2) I acknowledge that Jesus Christ is most certainly real, and I believe that he personally spoke at parts within the vision. However, I am inclined to think that the parts with him appearing in the clouds and destroying armies didn't require him as a live action participant, destroying real people just to make the scene.... a scene which is set in a future setting, mind you.

    Thinking of this vision on the Mount of Transfiguration in a similar vein as the vision in the book of Revelation, I am inclined to think that the figures of Moses and Elijah were symbolic elements of the vision. That the vision had symbolic meaning is evident in Jesus's response to his disciples, which seems to indicate that they didn't understand what they had seen.

    But regardless of how the vision is interpreted, it doesn't establish that Moses or Elijah were ever in heaven (the abode of God) in any form at any time. Even if we grant that these were real manifestations of the original people, they were seen on the earth, not in heaven. The given details of the event don't contradict either opinion. Like you said, it's not given to us in any complete sense.

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rosenritter For Your Post:

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  14. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Thank you for the kind style of response. We need more of that on these boards.
    Yes, it is a delight to study in this way.



    I'm not sure how relevant that consideration may be. It's not a question of whether the disciples all saw the same thing, and I don't think it matters whether the vision reached them through their eyes or whether it was directly overlaid on top of their brain. Likewise, it could be a physical manifestation or vision granted of the spirit realm, such as the case of Elijah that you mentioned. The elements that I note are:

    1) that to be consistent with other parts of scripture, there is no life outside of resurrection.
    2) that although it is with God's prerogative to raise ahead of schedule for a specific purpose and as such remains a possibility, this would be a special exception, rather than the rule (Matthew 27:52-53)
    3) the more pressing implication of the term vision, to me, is that whatever they saw likely had symbolic meaning

    I recognize that point one (1) above may be subject for debate considering the nature of this thread. However, regardless of where one stands on that point, I acknowledge that it could be possible that this was the literal Moses and Elijah, specifically raised for this appearance.

    Yet, I think this is unlikely, considering the nature of visions in general. If we consider the most well known vision of the entire scripture, the book of Revelation, it is filled with images of people and things. While some of these people and things are most certainly real, the images of them likely were not. For example,

    1) Horses are real things. Yet I think it is unlikely that God recruited real horses to play their parts with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

    2) I acknowledge that Jesus Christ is most certainly real, and I believe that he personally spoke at parts within the vision. However, I am inclined to think that the parts with him appearing in the clouds and destroying armies didn't require him as a live action participant, destroying real people just to make the scene.... a scene which is set in a future setting, mind you.

    Thinking of this vision on the Mount of Transfiguration in a similar vein as the vision in the book of Revelation, I am inclined to think that the figures of Moses and Elijah were symbolic elements of the vision. That the vision had symbolic meaning is evident in Jesus's response to his disciples, which seems to indicate that they didn't understand what they had seen.

    But regardless of how the vision is interpreted, it doesn't establish that Moses or Elijah were ever in heaven (the abode of God) in any form at any time. Even if we grant that these were real manifestations of the original people, they were seen on the earth, not in heaven. The given details of the event don't contradict either opinion. Like you said, it's not given to us in any complete sense.
    I've seen or heard so many versions of what the story represented.
    I try to remember them all.

    The one I am most partial to is that it happened to remind and give encouragement to His disciples of the coming restored kingdom in which it was expected that Elijah and Moses would come before that time happened.
    More of a reminder than some new revelation.

    Some conclude that Elijah and Moses will be the two witnesses killed by the beast in Revelation 11:3.
    Representing the witness of the prophets and the law. (Romans 3:21 and Luke 16:29)
    Especially since the 2 witnesses do miracles very similar to that Moses and Elijah had done.
    The thing about that view is that Moses and Elijah would have to be raised in mortal bodies in order to be killed.

    It is possible that the 2 witnesses will be men acting in the spirit of Elijah and Moses, as John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.

    For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

  15. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus
    ...Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God Himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    from the dead dwells in you,
    ...Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God Himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    He who raised Christ from the dead
    Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God Himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11)
    Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God Himself.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  16. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    no.

    Gen 5:20 Thus all the days of Jared were 962 years, and he died.
    Gen 5:21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he fathered Methuselah.
    Gen 5:22 Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:23 Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years.
    Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
    How do you EVER get that you disproved what I said?

    Enoch did not experience dying, the death of his physical body, because God took him up spiritually before his body died.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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