High Cherub IX (July 15th, 2017)
High Cherub IX (July 15th, 2017)
"Enoch lived sixty-five years and begot Methuselah. After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years and had sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years." (Genesis 5:21-23)
1. Do I believe there are saints in heaven now? No. Hebrews 11:13, KJV "These all died in faith, not having received the promises..." Do I believe in the resurrection at Christ's coming and his kingdom? Yes. 1 Corinthians 15:52 "...for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
2. Do I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity? Officially no. I don't say I believe in something that requires me to ask what a person means when they use the term (Romans 14;23, "...whatsoever is not of faith is sin.") Although there are some people who explain "Trinity" in terms that seem acceptable and compatible with scripture, in my experience the people that demand rote allegiance to "Trinity" as a "heretic test" don't bat an eye when it's explained in terms identical to polytheism. If you wanted to ask me about specific statements that you consider "Trinity" I can answer those happily. But otherwise, my default answer is "no."
3. Do I believe that Jesus Christ is God? Yes. In the strongest and highest meaning of the word, without equivocation or reservation, as Lord and Creator and LORD and besides him there is no God. Colossians 2:9 KJV (9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. I'm quite vocal in this regard.
patrick jane (July 15th, 2017)
Genesis 5:23-24 KJV
(23) And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
(24) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 KJV
(5) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hebrews 11:13 KJV
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
As I understand these together, Enoch lived three hundred and sixty five years before God took him. Whether God took him so that he would not see death (his own premature death) or the death of others (mankind murdering each other, or being wiped out by the judgment of God) is hard to say, but either might be compatible with the statement in Hebrews that Enoch was also among those who "died in faith." As to where God took him, we know it was "someplace else" where "others couldn't find him" but past that it's speculation.
There's not much given for us to be dogmatic about the details here.
I would assume that Moses and Elijah were dead while Jesus walked the earth. I suppose that they could have been raised before this time but to me that seems less likely than Christ's explanation that what they saw on the Mount of Transfiguration was a vision.
Matthew 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Hypothetically, if Moses and Elijah had been walking side by side through the streets of Jerusalem, how would anyone have recognized them? You might recognize Abraham Lincoln or George Washington because their faces show on money, but the Jews didn't keep pictures of people at all. With that in mind, look at the verses that come next:
Matthew 17:10-12 KJV
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
If they had seen the literal manifestation of Elijah, why are they asking about Elijah like this now? The Elijah that Jesus talks of when he explains to them shows that it was intended to be understood in a symbolic context.
Matthew 17:13 KJV
(13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
The context (and Christ's explanation) does point towards this being a symbolic vision, rather than a literal appearance of specific persons. Thus my assumption that Moses and Elijah remained dead and buried during this time, rather than being specifically raised for a cameo appearance.
Did you keep reading, Way 2 Go? What does the word "all" mean to you?
Hebrews 11:4-13 KJV
(4) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
(5) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
(8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
(9) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
(10) For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
(11) Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
(12) Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Last I checked, "all" included the people who were specifically named in the foregoing list. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Sara are all named as "these all died in faith, not having received the promises." Of all the people he could have named, seeing as Paul specifically named these five people, I'm inclined to think he knew what he was talking about.
To clarify, Mr. Go, Are you disputing the inspiration of verse 13, or challenging the definition of the word "all?" Just needed someplace to try out your new Star Wars meme? Or was that just simple trolling?
Spoiler
I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.
"Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".
I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.
Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.
I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.
My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.
steko (July 16th, 2017)
They hadn't received the promise while they lived in their body.
However, they did see the promise while they lived by their own spirit.
Hebrews 21:12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,
Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Oh how I love the Word of God!
Do not just read the word do it.
You do not even recognize those scripture above show that those righteous lived on in their spirits.
Abel though dead STILL SPEAKS.
Enoch taken up.
Abraham seeing Jesus' day and was glad.
The spirits who disobeyed in the time of Noah living in prison/hell, and being preached the gospel too so that in their spirit they can obey God.
Oh how I love the Word of God!
Do not just read the word do it.
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