Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[God's Truth]

So you believe Jesus taught an evil doctrine.

No, but you do.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

According to your lack of faith and false doctrines, you die physically every time you fall asleep.

[Lazy afternoon]

So you believe Jesus taught an evil doctrine.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: (decay)
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.(decay)

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Only then shall we be forever with the Lord--

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Looks like you prefer the doctrines of devils.

LA

[jamie]

...Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God Himself.

So who is the Spirit of Christ?

We know Christ is not our Father to whom Jesus said people should pray.

[Rosenritter]

Yes, it is a delight to study in this way.

I've seen or heard so many versions of what the story represented.
I try to remember them all.

The one I am most partial to is that it happened to remind and give encouragement to His disciples of the coming restored kingdom in which it was expected that Elijah and Moses would come before that time happened.
More of a reminder than some new revelation.

Some conclude that Elijah and Moses will be the two witnesses killed by the beast in Revelation 11:3.
Representing the witness of the prophets and the law. (Romans 3:21 and Luke 16:29)
Especially since the 2 witnesses do miracles very similar to that Moses and Elijah had done.
The thing about that view is that Moses and Elijah would have to be raised in mortal bodies in order to be killed.

It is possible that the 2 witnesses will be men acting in the spirit of Elijah and Moses, as John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.

I think it might be a mixture of Moses and Elijah being representative figures for the "Law and the Prophets" and that there were specific prophetic references with both Moses (regarding "that Prophet") and Elijah (which was to first come and restore all things.)

Moses and Elijah both link to the prophetic messiah.

Deu 18:18
(18) I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Mal 4:4-5
(4) Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
(5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mat 17:10-13
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
(13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

I am inclined to think that the two witnesses of Revelation may be unrelated. Two not such an uncommon number as to demand correlation. I don't worry about that much, because I figure if we are there we'll know it when we see it.

[God's Truth]

So who is the Spirit of Christ?

We know Christ is not our Father to whom Jesus said people should pray.

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God are the one and only Divine Spirit.

They are one and the same.

[Rosenritter]

So who is the Spirit of Christ?

We know Christ is not our Father to whom Jesus said people should pray.

Why would Jesus teach his disciples to pray to him in the distance when they were right there and could speak to him face to face? When God is not in front of us, we pray to the Father. When God is in front of us, we speak to Jesus.

Isn't this topic bleeding over from another thread?

[jamie]

Why would Jesus teach his disciples to pray to him in the distance when they were right there and could speak to him face to face? When God is not in front of us, we pray to the Father. When God is in front of us, we speak to Jesus.

"The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate when he was determined to let Him go." (Acts 3:13)

Like us Jesus was a servant.

[jamie]

The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God are the one and only Divine Spirit.

Yes, Jesus had the mind of the Spirit, but they are different persons.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

We will be priests of both.

[Rosenritter]

"The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate when he was determined to let Him go." (Acts 3:13)

Like us Jesus was a servant.

... but unlike us, Jesus is our God.

Joh 20:28
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus was found in the fashion of a man, and endured all things as we do, and when in that form he was a servant and a prophet and the messiah. Maybe this discussion belongs on another board?

[jamie]

... but unlike us, Jesus is our God.

What do you mean by "unlike us"?

Jesus said, "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God." (John 20:17)

We have the same God as our co-heir Jesus.

[Rosenritter]

What do you mean by "unlike us"?

Jesus said, "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God." (John 20:17)

We have the same God as our co-heir Jesus.

I would be happy to explain. Jesus is God. We are not God. Unlike us, Jesus is our God. In the words of Thomas, he is "My Lord and my God."

We may all be heirs, but we are heirs in a different sense. We are heirs by grace, whereas Jesus is an heir by divine right.

Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Heb 1:4-8
(4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
(5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
(7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

So in what sense are we co-heirs? In respect to the thing inherited, not the method by which we are (or became) heirs.

Rom 8:17
(17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The inheritance is glory and eternal life. We are not immortal, but this may be received as a free gift, for those that believe on Christ. Jesus Christ, on the other hand, is the source of that life, and he has life in himself just as the Father has life in himself.

Joh 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mat 19:29
(29) And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Joh 5:25-26
(25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Jesus, being God manifest in the flesh, inherits glory and eternal life by right. We, on the other hand, become co-heirs as we are grafted in through grace and forgiveness of sins, as we partake of the Bread of Life that came down from heaven. God and Jesus is the source of that life, we are the recipients of that life. We are the creation, and unlike us, Jesus is our Creator.

Joh 1:1-4
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jesus did come in the form of the suffering servant. Yet this is irrelevant with respect to who he truly is. We may be servants, and the angels may be our fellow-servants who say "See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant... worship God" but it is unto Jesus that it is said, "Let all the angels of God worship him."

Mat 14:33
(33) Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Rev 19:10
(10) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

That's what I mean when I say, "Unlike us, Jesus is our God." He is. He is the King of Glory that ascends to heaven. We are not.

[jamie]

We may all be heirs, but we are heirs in a different sense. We are heirs by grace, whereas Jesus is an heir by divine right.

What was Jesus' divine right?

[God's Truth]

Yes, Jesus had the mind of the Spirit, but they are different persons.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

We will be priests of both.

Jesus had the mind of the Spirit?!

No, the Lord Jesus Christ IS THE SPIRIT.

Just ask me for the scriptures if you care about them.

[Rosenritter]

What was Jesus' divine right?

It seems like you are asking me to repeat myself.

As the creator of men and angels, it is his right that they worship him (see Hebrews chapter 1). As the Creator of all things and giver of life, immortality and eternal life as his by divine right (see John chapter 1). Quite a few things could be said to be his divine right, but worship, glory, and immortality are among them. The very identifying names set aside exclusively for God are among those that are his by divine right.

The Creator that creates life has the right to that same life. When he steps into this world, he has that right by inheritance, not as a gift, but by divine right because it was always his. Thus, divine plus right equals divine right.

I am trying to avoid filling several hundred pages with interwoven proof and example. It seems that you have an objection. Is it something you are able to specifically manifest into words that I might understand? If not here, perhaps by private message?

[jamie]

The Creator that creates life has the right to that same life. When he steps into this world, he has that right by inheritance, not as a gift, but by divine right because it was always his. Thus, divine plus right equals divine right.

Christ surrendered his divine rights so as to become one of us.

We have the same spiritual parents that Jesus has.