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View Poll Results: Are There Saints In Heaven?

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Thread: Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

  1. #616
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    So according to you, when Jesus TRANSFIGURED, he become just a vision?

    Denominations that believe in soul sleep, they teach that Peter, James, and John saw merely a “vision” when Elijah and Moses were speaking to Jesus, and that it was not really Elijah and Moses. They treat the word vision as if it means illusion, or mirage. Some Bible translations do not even use the word “vision”, even if all translations used the word “vision,” that would not change the scriptures to say what soul sleep believers are trying to have us believe. The scripture plainly says that Jesus transformed BEFORE THEM.
    Maybe Jesus was being deceitful like when he spoke of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

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    The "poll" as to whether there are saints in heaven reveals a significant number of Bible readers who believe that the Bible does not teach that there are saints in heaven. This situation is repeated among Bible-Christians for every item of Christian teaching including the divinity of Christ and the Trinity. A poll cannot PROVE that the majority are correct, which shows that personal interpretation of the Scriptures is not the God-given means of knowing what God has revealed to humanity. It also means that personal interpretation makes it impossible for a Bible Christian preacher to stand with absolute confidence before the people and proclaim it as truth. Christ endowed His church with the fail-safe means by which the apostles and their successors could unerringly preach the truth to unbelievers. "The Holy Spirit whom I will send from the Father,He will guide you into all the truth..." Only the Church possesses that divine protection and authority to ensure the correct understanding of the Scriptures so that the true Gospel can be preached.
    Last edited by Patrick Cronin; August 27th, 2017 at 04:54 PM. Reason: clarity

  4. #618
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    The "saints" in heaven in those verses are not literal. Just as the wild beast with 7 heads is not literal (chapter 13), nor are the locusts with women's hair and tails of scorpions (chapter 9). What John saw under the altar was a VISION; there were not really saints under an altar. If those "saints" were real, then, as the next few verses state, the sun became black, the moon became like blood, the stars literally fell out of the sky, the sky split apart, and the mountains and islands were moved around. Were those things literal?

    Oh, and how about the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse in the first few verses of that chapter....were they literal? Did John see actual men on real horses with Hades following behind?

    You are pitifully clueless about what the scriptures are telling us.
    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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  6. #619
    Over 3000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    That was part of the article, but I think it's true.
    So that would make how many mediators between God and men? And how many high priests that make intercession for us?

    1 Timothy 2:5-6 KJV
    (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Hebrews 8:1-3 KJV
    (1) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
    (2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
    (3) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

    There's additional passages and symbolism here as well. When Jesus instructed us to pray, he told us to pray to our Father in heaven.When Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was rent from top to bottom, signifying that God himself has made the way open to us directly. We no longer need priests to intercede for us, as we have a high priest eternal in the heavens.

    Even if we were to assume that the saints were alive and conscious in heaven (which would fight against the very arguments Jesus used to prove the resurrection) the idea of these saints interceding on our behalf or hearing our prayers would also seem to go against the the spirit of these scriptures.

  7. #620
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    So that would make how many mediators between God and men? And how many high priests that make intercession for us?

    1 Timothy 2:5-6 KJV
    (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Hebrews 8:1-3 KJV
    (1) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
    (2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
    (3) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

    There's additional passages and symbolism here as well. When Jesus instructed us to pray, he told us to pray to our Father in heaven.When Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was rent from top to bottom, signifying that God himself has made the way open to us directly. We no longer need priests to intercede for us, as we have a high priest eternal in the heavens.

    Even if we were to assume that the saints were alive and conscious in heaven (which would fight against the very arguments Jesus used to prove the resurrection) the idea of these saints interceding on our behalf or hearing our prayers would also seem to go against the the spirit of these scriptures.
    You make some good points Rosen, you always do. I don't think the saints are "mediators" and they are not high priests

    Matthew 27:52 KJV - obviously, some saints rose from the grave.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  8. #621
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Cronin View Post
    The "poll" as to whether there are saints in heaven reveals a significant number of Bible readers who believe that the Bible does not teach that there are saints in heaven. This situation is repeated among Bible-Christians for every item of Christian teaching including the divinity of Christ and the Trinity. A poll cannot PROVE that the majority are correct, which shows that personal interpretation of the Scriptures is not the God-given means of knowing what God has revealed to humanity. It also means that personal interpretation makes it impossible for a Bible Christian preacher to stand with absolute confidence before the people and proclaim it as truth. Christ endowed His church with the fail-safe means by which the apostles and their successors could unerringly preach the truth to unbelievers. "The Holy Spirit whom I will send from the Father,He will guide you into all the truth..." Only the Church possesses that divine protection and authority to ensure the correct understanding of the Scriptures so that the true Gospel can be preached.
    You're right Cronin, a poll can't prove anything, only what the majority think. What Church do you think preaches the correct understanding of scripture?
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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  10. #622
    Over 3000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    You make some good points Rosen, you always do. I don't think the saints are "mediators" and they are not high priests

    Matthew 27:52 KJV - obviously, some saints rose from the grave.
    Yes, some saints rose from the grave, but they did not rise to immortality and eternal life. They went into the city and were seen by witnesses.

    Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
    (52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    This would be consistent with other that have been raised to life to this point. The child of the widow raised by Elijah, the daughter of the ruler, and also Lazarus. All these were raised to life, but they were not changed (1 Kings 17:22 ,Matthew 9:25, John 11:44). Paul himself raised one of the saints back to life, and it is understood that he was also raised to a mortal state (Acts 20:10) and would have died again in his normal time.

    Proof One

    Back to the instance in the gospel account, it does not say that the saints were raised immortal, or that they ascended to heaven, or that they are still alive in any fashion. Actually speaking to the contrary, Paul tells us in Hebrews 11 that the saints of God have not received the promise, and that their reward lies ahead, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
    (39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    (40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Without an actual scripture stating that these saints that arose ascended to heaven or were raised to immortality, I think the more natural interpretation is that they were raised to life in the same fashion as every other person who has been raised to life so far. They would be raised to life in the normal physical sense.

    Proof Two

    On the topic of being raised to eternal life and immortality, the saints that arose at Christ's crucifixion cannot have ascended to heaven or been raised to immortality. First, Christ only has the special privilege of ascending to heaven (Psalm 24 was used as a proof of the Deity of Christ by Christians as early as the 2nd Century, which specifies that ascending to heaven is the identification of the LORD of Hosts)

    Psalms 24:7-10 KJV
    (7) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
    (8) Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
    (9) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
    (10) Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.


    ... and second, Christ is called the firstfruits of them that slept. If others were raised to eternal life and immortality before Christ, he cannot be the fruitfruits, can he? Someone else would be the firstfruits.

    1 Corinthians 15:20-23 KJV
    (20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    So the very gospel (as defined by Paul as being the gospel) says that Christ is the firstfruits of those that slept, which excludes any others. We are also told when others will be raised to eternal life, afterwards at Christ's coming.

    So there's actually quite a few good reasons to believe that those saints were raised to life, and died again at a later date.

    a) Previous resurrections were to physical life only
    b) The scripture does not state that these saints were raised to anything but physical life
    c) Ascending to heaven is the identification of God, the LORD of Hosts
    d) Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept, therefore he must be first
    e) We are specifically told that the saints are not raised to eternal life until after Christ's return.

  11. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Drop the bombastic rhetoric please. In other words, you don't actually have an authority source (i.e. scripture) to establish that the additional figures seen in the vision on the Mount of Transfiguration were spirits.
    You are and do exactly what you falsely accuse me of; funny how that works. You expose yourself.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  12. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Maybe Jesus was being deceitful like when he spoke of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.
    Exactly!
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  13. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    So that would make how many mediators between God and men? And how many high priests that make intercession for us?

    1 Timothy 2:5-6 KJV
    (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Hebrews 8:1-3 KJV
    (1) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
    (2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
    (3) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

    There's additional passages and symbolism here as well. When Jesus instructed us to pray, he told us to pray to our Father in heaven.When Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was rent from top to bottom, signifying that God himself has made the way open to us directly. We no longer need priests to intercede for us, as we have a high priest eternal in the heavens.

    Even if we were to assume that the saints were alive and conscious in heaven (which would fight against the very arguments Jesus used to prove the resurrection) the idea of these saints interceding on our behalf or hearing our prayers would also seem to go against the the spirit of these scriptures.
    You have a doctrine of death. You have no idea about the life given through Jesus.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  14. #626
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    From a spiritual, legal point of view we are seated in the heavenlies, but again that is speaking of our spiritual authority and power given to us by God.

    No saint is literally there now.

    We must wait for our gathering together unto him for that.

    I Thessalonians 4:13-18
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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  16. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    From a spiritual, legal point of view we are seated in the heavenlies, but again that is speaking of our spiritual authority and power given to us by God.

    No saint is literally there now.

    We must wait for our gathering together unto him for that.

    I Thessalonians 4:13-18
    The spirit of humans live on in consciousness after the death of the physical body.

    The scriptures show us that spirits of those who have died can be comforted; and spirits can hear the gospel and live according to it. Paul even thought that he went to heaven in his spirit.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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