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Thread: Unbiblical Headship Doctrine

  1. #16
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Single women have it made -
    Maybe not:

    But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of [her] age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. [1Co 7:36]
    Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. [1Co 7:37]
    So then he that giveth [her] in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth [her] not in marriage doeth better. [1Co 7:38]


    It seems to indicate that the man is in charge of her when she's single ("a virgin"; which man is debated, whether her father or future husband--I think it's her father). In either case there still needs to be a symbol of authority on her head, for 2 reasons: For this reason (given a few verses earlier, in 1Co 11:7), and because the angels are watching, a woman should wear a covering on her head to show she is under authority. [1Co 11:10]

    But when is she supposed to have this symbol of authority on her head? That's from 11:5: But a woman dishonors her head (her husband or father) if she prays or prophesies without a covering on her head, for this is the same as shaving her head. [1Co 11:5 NLT]

    Think about that for a moment, "If she prays or prophesies". Can anyone prophesy without speaking? If the answer is "no" (and I hope our language isn't so convoluted that someone could say yes), then it must mean that women do not ALWAYS have to keep silent in church (compare to 1Co 14:34). It seems she is permitted to pray or prophecy, at the very least, as long as she is under the authority of her head (husband or father). Until her husband dies. Then she has no other head, according to:

    The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. [1Co 7:39] A woman who has never married can't have a dead husband, so pre-marrieds aren't included here.

    So it's only the widowed women who have it made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    ...[I]t's only the widowed women who have it made.


    Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications, and prayers night and day [1 Tim. 5:5].

    "Now this widow is “a widow indeed”—a real widow. She is “desolate,” that is, she is in need. She is a godly woman, and she prays. She not only prays for the church and the pastor, but she prays for herself and for her need. She has a right to do that. And I want to say that God uses us to help answer such prayers. He makes it clear that when we find a widow like this we are to help her. It is quite lovely when we do things God’s way."

    But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth [1 Tim. 5:6].

    "But if you go over to a widow’s house and find that she is having a cocktail party, I would say that she is not the widow to help. It does not matter how prominent her son, or her sister, or her brother might be in the church, she is not to be helped." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Epistles (1 and 2 Timothy/Titus/Philemon) (electronic ed., Vol. 50, p. 71). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

    "1 Ti 5:5 left alone. See note on v. 3. The form of this Gr. word denotes a permanent condition of being forsaken and left without resources. She is “really” a widow, since there is no family to support her. trusts in God. A continual state or settled attitude of hope in God (cf. 1 Kin. 17:8–16; Jer. 49:11). Since she has no one else, she pleads with God as her only hope.

    5:6 dead while she lives. A widow who lives a worldly, immoral, ungodly life may be alive physically, but her lifestyle proves she is unregenerate and spiritually dead (cf. Eph. 2:1)." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1868). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

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    Derf (December 2nd, 2016)

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    Quote Originally Posted by serpentdove View Post


    Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications, and prayers night and day [1 Tim. 5:5].

    "Now this widow is “a widow indeed”—a real widow. She is “desolate,” that is, she is in need. She is a godly woman, and she prays. She not only prays for the church and the pastor, but she prays for herself and for her need. She has a right to do that. And I want to say that God uses us to help answer such prayers. He makes it clear that when we find a widow like this we are to help her. It is quite lovely when we do things God’s way."

    But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth [1 Tim. 5:6].

    "But if you go over to a widow’s house and find that she is having a cocktail party, I would say that she is not the widow to help. It does not matter how prominent her son, or her sister, or her brother might be in the church, she is not to be helped." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Epistles (1 and 2 Timothy/Titus/Philemon) (electronic ed., Vol. 50, p. 71). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

    "1 Ti 5:5 left alone. See note on v. 3. The form of this Gr. word denotes a permanent condition of being forsaken and left without resources. She is “really” a widow, since there is no family to support her. trusts in God. A continual state or settled attitude of hope in God (cf. 1 Kin. 17:8–16; Jer. 49:11). Since she has no one else, she pleads with God as her only hope.

    5:6 dead while she lives. A widow who lives a worldly, immoral, ungodly life may be alive physically, but her lifestyle proves she is unregenerate and spiritually dead (cf. Eph. 2:1)." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1868). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.
    And don't forget 5:9-10. She has to have been mostly perfect her whole married life, and only having had a single husband all that time.

    Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, [and not unless] she has been the wife of one man, [1Ti 5:9 NKJV]
    well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work. [1Ti 5:10 NKJV]

    I think the 1 Tim passage is more of an indictment on us sons, that we need to be prepared to take care of our aging mothers, since if Paul didn't think the church should take care of them, he certainly wouldn't be thinking of the government taking care of them. And maybe it is an indictment on our aging mothers, if they feel like they want to maintain their "independence" (by expecting government help or church help, perhaps) instead of living with their sons when they are unable to care for themselves.

    Finally, going back to those rather lofty expectations on the widows before they are widows: they (and their husbands!) need to teach their children, while the children are still in their parents' households, to be responsible for their future older folks, so that when they are older, they will be willing to take care of their mothers (and maybe their aunts, according to the KJV).

    This is a great motivator for many good things that is often lost on our society:
    1. to teach our children well so that they can support us later
    2. to support our own parents so that our children see our example that we want them to follow
    3. to get along with our children so they will want us around
    4. to get along with our parents so we can understand when our children don't always agree with us
    5. not to spend our children's inheritance before we get old and too feeble to take care of ourselves, as they will need some of that for our care
    6. and a great many more...

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    Saxon Hammer (April 20th, 2017)

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    China's Missing Girls Gen. 2:18, 20

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    Quote Originally Posted by serpentdove View Post
    That's beautiful! And it does make you stop and think how often we walk by something that could give us joy if we'd just stop to enjoy it.

    (I'm not sure what it has to do with the thread topic, though. She is wearing a headcovering!)

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    theophilus (December 8th, 2016)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I'm not sure what it has to do with the thread topic, though. She is wearing a headcovering!
    She wore a hat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    And don't forget 5:9-10. She has to have been mostly perfect her whole married life, and only having had a single husband all that time.
    Mostly Jer 16:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by serpentdove View Post
    Mostly Jer 16:2
    Now you got me curious. How does Jer 16:2 apply to this topic in any way, shape, or form?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Now you got me curious. How does Jer 16:2 apply to this topic in any way, shape, or form?
    Our culture's denial of marriage is a prophetic sign of the end times (Jer. 16:2).

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    Quote Originally Posted by serpentdove View Post
    Our culture's denial of marriage is a prophetic sign of the end times (Jer. 16:2).
    I'm not sure what to say about that conclusion.

    It hardly makes sense in light of Jesus' declaration that "For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark," [Mat 24:38 KJV]. Not to mention that Jer 16:2 is a specific command from God to Jeremiah, explained in the following verses as applying to Jeremiah's land and Jeremiah's people.

    For thus saith the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them, and concerning their fathers that begat them in this land; [Jer 16:3 KJV]
    They {those sons and daughter} shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; [but] they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. [Jer 16:4 KJV]
    For thus saith the LORD, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people, saith the LORD, [even] lovingkindness and mercies. [Jer 16:5 KJV]
    Both the great and the small shall die in this land: they shall not be buried, neither shall [men] lament for them, nor cut themselves, nor make themselves bald for them: [Jer 16:6 KJV]
    For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will cause to cease out of this place in your eyes, and in your days, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride. [Jer 16:9 KJV]

    Notice how many references to the specific time and place of Jeremiah? And it wasn't a reference to a general disregard for marriage that will come upon the people, but a s prophecy of the specific heartache that will befall them BECAUSE they are married and have children--the prophecy would make no sense if people weren't getting married and having children.

    Not that I disagree about a potential "last days" scenario here in the US in our time--there's plenty of indications that God is getting to the end of His patience with our nation. Whether that is a sign of THE end times or just the degeneration and end of our nation is hard to determine.

    I'm a bit intrigued as well as to how your last post is related to your thread. It seems to me that you complain that we (the church) don't have a proper understanding of headship while you minimize the teaching Paul was giving Timothy about the role of women in the church. Am I understanding that correctly? Your Diana reference was new to me, and the wording you used for that verse in Timothy was different from all the translations I looked at. I tend to think of the "I don't allow a woman to speak..." passage as a headship type of passage, but you seem to see it differently.

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    [One for one theory] Derf quote: …[W]hat if God actually put man in the garden to fail…[?]

    Like adding contamination to a petri dish? Eze 28:15 Sin was man’s fault not God’s (Rom. 5:12–19).

    He needs him [Adam] to fall…This doesn't try to account for the role of women (apologies to women), specifically of Eve.

    She came from him—he was her source (1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:23). Headship is not biblical.

    Adam and Eve needed to be redeemed (Rom. 3:25, 26). One is one not two (Matt. 19:6).

    Oops from theology club--could not reply. I'll put my response here.

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