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Thread: Pre-trib believers

  1. #16
    LIFETIME MEMBER steko's Avatar
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    Beware the conflagaration!
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Scripture does not say there is a gap.

    We do return with Messiah at the second coming.

    Musterion: a technical term a very specific term used by Paul that meant the following: a totally new revelation in the New Testament found nowhere in the Old Testament. In other words the Musterion taught by Paul had zero references in the Hebrew prophets.

    The kingdom of God is multifaceted. The musterion of the kingdom was that it would be in mystery form and that the church would be part of it during this age.

    This time: And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (*Matthew‬ *13‬:*11‬ ASV)



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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Scripture does not say there is a gap.

    We do return with Messiah at the second coming.

    Musterion: a technical term a very specific term used by Paul that meant the following: a totally new revelation in the New Testament found nowhere in the Old Testament. In other words the Musterion taught by Paul had zero references in the Hebrew prophets.

    The kingdom of God is multifaceted. The musterion of the kingdom was that it would be in mystery form and that the church would be part of it during this age.

    This time: And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (*Matthew‬ *13‬:*11‬ ASV)



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    Are you a pre-trib believer?

    Are you about protecting truth, or protecting feelings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Are you a pre-trib believer?
    Yes


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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Yes
    Sweet.

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    Something about Peter

    Even within the pre-trib group, there are differing opinions.
    So I'm kinda sticking to the views of pre-tibbers only, just to examine how many of those views actually hold up when scrutinized.

    One of the views is that the 12 are not of the BOC.
    They did not preach the grace gospel.

    Those that believe in the grace gospel are of the BOC.
    Those that don't are not.

    So, if Peter is not in the BOC, then it seems cut-and-dry that he did not believe the grace gospel.

    We would have to admit that Peter did not believe the grace gospel in order to maintain that he is not in the BOC.
    And that would mean that God did not open Peter's eyes to receive the grace gospel, which would mean that God purposely blinded them of it.
    Could be why there was such conflict between Peter and Paul.

    Then again, if Peter were preaching a different gospel than Paul, then Paul should have accursed him. (Gal 1:8)


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    As to Peter; it would APPEAR that way ON ITS' SURFACE...

    For having long since found, and continuing to find, that it depends on the extent to which we each actually look at these things not only in light of God's Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery, but in light of the further light about said Two-Fold Purpose that each passing day for each of us, continues to shed on the eyes of our understanding with each reflection on it all.

    In this; I do not see Peter as having been blind and or blinded.

    Rather; that Paul's had not been their aspect of the gospel of Christ and or calling.

    Galatians 2's is merely depicting once more, the same Peter who had thrice denied having known the Lord out of his need to fit in, with whomever during such a moment.

    The Lord obviously knew Peter was simply not perfect in that respect and was even very kind towards him as He not only warned Him that that would happen, but told Him that He would restore him.

    We all know Peter's type in this. They are fine with you until someone shows up who's possible rejection they fear. Right before your eyes, they turn on you.

    The dear brother was simply human; and that had been one of his personal frailties as a human being.

    As for what he related in 2 Peter 3; it does not appear to me that Peter is saying that he does not understand some things.

    Rather; that because some things take time in the Word; they that are unlearned in the Scripture will distort them, just as happened with the Prophetic Scriptures.

    Besides, had the Lord blinded Peter and company; He would not have inspired Paul to send them copies of his writings.

    Remember also Tam; it was Peter whom the Spirit inspired to validate Paul's writings as "Scripture."

    I strongly suspect that witness by Peter will serve an even greater purpose during the Tribulation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    As to Peter; it would APPEAR that way ON ITS' SURFACE...

    For having long since found, and continuing to find, that it depends on the extent to which we each actually look at these things not only in light of God's Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery, but in light of the further light about said Two-Fold Purpose that each passing day for each of us, continues to shed on the eyes of our understanding with each reflection on it all.

    In this; I do not see Peter as having been blind and or blinded.

    Rather; that Paul's had not been their aspect of the gospel of Christ and or calling.

    Galatians 2's is merely depicting once more, the same Peter who had thrice denied having known the Lord out of his need to fit in, with whomever during such a moment.

    The Lord obviously knew Peter was simply not perfect in that respect and was even very kind towards him as He not only warned Him that that would happen, but told Him that He would restore him.

    We all know Peter's type in this. They are fine with you until someone shows up who's possible rejection they fear. Right before your eyes, they turn on you.

    The dear brother was simply human; and that had been one of his personal frailties as a human being.

    As for what he related in 2 Peter 3; it does not appear to me that Peter is saying that he does not understand some things.

    Rather; that because some things take time in the Word; they that are unlearned in the Scripture will distort them, just as happened with the Prophetic Scriptures.

    Besides, had the Lord blinded Peter and company; He would not have inspired Paul to send them copies of his writings.

    Remember also Tam; it was Peter whom the Spirit inspired to validate Paul's writings as "Scripture."

    I strongly suspect that witness by Peter will serve an even greater purpose during the Tribulation.
    All good points that need to be considered.

    QUESTION
    I'll word it a couple of ways so you can get the clear point being asked.

    Can one know Paul's gospel is true, but reject it and say I don't want that, ............ are they in the BOC because they believe Paul's gospel?
    Can one believe Paul's gospel to be true and not be in the BOC?
    If so, then how does anyone that believes in Paul's gospel know if they are in the BOC or not?
    If Peter knew that Paul's gospel was true, that it was the only one that saved at that time. ......... ???????

    Are you about protecting truth, or protecting feelings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    All good points that need to be considered.

    QUESTION
    I'll word it a couple of ways so you can get the clear point being asked.

    Can one know Paul's gospel is true, but reject it and say I don't want that, ............ are they in the BOC because they believe Paul's gospel?
    Can one believe Paul's gospel to be true and not be in the BOC?
    If so, then how does anyone that believes in Paul's gospel know if they are in the BOC or not?
    If Peter knew that Paul's gospel was true, that it was the only one that saved at that time. ......... ???????
    If the issue is still Peter...

    The Twelve and their followers were sealed on their belief that Jesus was the Christ and were not in need of Paul's gospel.

    This here...

    Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

    Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

    2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    The nation receives that as a nation at the return of the Lord.

    While; those indiviuals of that nation who believed Jesus was the Christ - became members of the Little Flock and received it on the spot.

    I often told Jerry I agreed with him on some things but refused to help him turn it so nastily against other MADs.

    The above about the Little Flock; was one of those things I agreed with him on.

    This here...

    John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    The gospels are chockful of those kinds of passages.
    Last edited by Danoh; August 1st, 2016 at 10:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    If the issue is still Peter...
    sigh

    It's not about Peter, but about anyone that heard both gospels.

    We could use Cornelius,
    He heard and believed Peter's gospel.
    So if he heard Paul's gospel a year later, could he say, "I'd rather have that than what Peter preached" ?
    Or could one that heard Paul and believed, but later heard Peter's gospel and believed it too, could he pick either gospel for himself since both gospels saved?
    If one hears both gospels and believe both gospels, could they choose kingdom or BOC?

    Was there a time when only Paul's gospel could save anyone, and the kingdom gospel could not?
    If so, was that time within the lifetime of Peter and Paul?

    If one preached to someone today about Peter's gospel and they believed it, would it save them? (into the kingdom)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Even within the pre-trib group, there are differing opinions.
    So I'm kinda sticking to the views of pre-tibbers only, just to examine how many of those views actually hold up when scrutinized.

    One of the views is that the 12 are not of the BOC.
    They did not preach the grace gospel.

    Those that believe in the grace gospel are of the BOC.
    Those that don't are not.

    So, if Peter is not in the BOC, then it seems cut-and-dry that he did not believe the grace gospel.

    We would have to admit that Peter did not believe the grace gospel in order to maintain that he is not in the BOC.
    And that would mean that God did not open Peter's eyes to receive the grace gospel, which would mean that God purposely blinded them of it.
    Could be why there was such conflict between Peter and Paul.

    Then again, if Peter were preaching a different gospel than Paul, then Paul should have accursed him. (Gal 1:8)

    What conflict?

    Peter was intimidated by the normal high society wing of the Jewish people and fell under the weight of their intimidation by refusing to eat with the Gentiles. Paul who excelled beyond those clowns wasn't intimidated at all by the Judaizers and was disgusted with Peter's hypocrisy. Since earlier in Acts 15 Peter added nothing to Paul's gospel because it was identical with Pete's.

    The reason why the Acts begins with Pete and the gets interrupted with Paul is because Pete had the keys to the kingdom of which you and I are now a part of! The kingdom is in its mystery form and will take on literal form at the second coming. The mystery is that the Gentiles would be partakers with the Jews in the New Covenant forming the Body of Christ.

    Pete unlocks the kingdom to the Jews, the Holy Spirit enters the Jewish believers.

    Phillip goes to Samaria.
    They believe and get saved.
    Pete goes to Samaria and uses the keys to open the kingdom to the Samaritans. The Holy Spirit enters the Samaritan believers.

    Paul gets saved.
    Peter goes to the Gentile believers and uses the keys to open the kingdom to the Gentiles. The Holy Spirit comes into the Gentile believers.

    Acts switches to Paul as Peter virtually disappears from the book. But not until Pete uses the keys to unlock the gospel to the Gentiles because until this is unlocked Paul can not begin his calling to the Gentiles.

    The view of the 12 not being in the BOC?

    Then why the heck did Yeshua give them the bread and wine telling them that they are partaking of His blood and body? One cannot partake of the blood of Yeshua without being redeemed by it. One cannot be redeemed without entering the Body thru the blood!


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    OK, so you believe Paul taught the same gospel as Peter?
    And both of them preached the gospel of the kingdom?
    And Paul was added to help Peter (and the others) spread
    Peter's gospel to the Gentiles?

    So, is it your belief that the kingdom and the BOC are one and the same?
    If so, most of these thread questions won't even apply to your view.

    Are you about protecting truth, or protecting feelings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    OK, so you believe Paul taught the same gospel as Peter?
    And both of them preached the gospel of the kingdom?
    And Paul was added to help Peter (and the others) spread
    Peter's gospel to the Gentiles?

    So, is it your belief that the kingdom and the BOC are one and the same?
    If so, most of these thread questions won't even apply to your view.
    I believe that the gospel of the kingdom was the proclamation that the Jewish Messiah was present and ready to set up His kingdom on earth. Paul rejected Yeshua's proclamation of the kingdom being offered to Israel on the basis of Yeshua being demon possessed. This resulted in three dramatic changes in Yeshua's policy.

    (1) He forbade the disciples from announcing Him as the Messiah! (2) He began His parabolic method of teaching with the intent that the nation would not understand who He was and what would happen to the nation because of their rejection of His offer to set up the Messianic Kingdom, and (3) He no longer heals everyone but now will only heal those with individual faith.

    2 points to consider, first before Mt 12 as in chapter 5 it says that the people understood Yeshua clearly. Second Israel committed a similar sin when at Kadesh Barnea the very same thing happened. There was a generational judgement that resulted in physical death but there was individual forgiveness. But here in direct relationship to the mystery kingdom age, the physical judgement of Jerusalem falling and the temple burned was inevitable yet individual forgiveness was available to Paul and James and others who were baptized (in Jewish culture this means they became followers of a message and or person by immersion signifying identification with that message and person Yeshua).

    Therefore I know that Paul by his own admission in Galatians had been teaching the very same gospel - not of the kingdom but of salvation and redemption, the same gospel James who was the leader of Peter taught.

    The mystery kingdom includes all saved persons from Acts 2 up to the rapture which precedes the tribulation (by how long we can't know).

    During the tribulation there will be the preaching of the kingdom again and it will also include the knowledge that Yeshua is the Messiah. Those who accept the message will be saved. If they survive the last day of the tribulation they will enter the Messianic Kingdom with their sin nature still intact whereas we of this dispensation enter that kingdom with the glorified bodies and can never more sin again. Praise God.


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    Re: Your questions, Tam...

    Question 1: We could use Cornelius,
    He heard and believed Peter's gospel.

    Answer: Kind of.

    Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 10:42 And he commanded us to testify that it is he who was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

    Why?

    Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    The "shall be" is not speaking of some future salvation. Rather; of how one is saved - not via the Law, verse 15, but through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Just as Paul preached that...

    Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Peter is saying that God purified their hearts by faith; just as Peter and company had had their hearts purified by faith, and not by the works of the Law.

    Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Question 2: So if he heard Paul's gospel a year later, could he say, "I'd rather have that than what Peter preached" ?

    Answer: He would not need to.

    Question 3: Or could one that heard Paul and believed, but later heard Peter's gospel and believed it too, could he pick either gospel for himself since both gospels saved?

    Answer: No. Each group had been saved unto each group's purpose within God's Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery.

    Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

    Question 4: If one hears both gospels and believe both gospels, could they choose kingdom or BOC?

    Answer: Same answer as 3.

    Question 5: Was there a time when only Paul's gospel could save anyone, and the kingdom gospel could not?

    Answer: Yes - when Peter's Prophesied aspect of the gospel of Christ - that grace Israel's Prophets did say should come, was cut off.

    What their Prophesied grace was....

    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

    1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

    1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

    Question 6: If so, was that time within the lifetime of Peter and Paul?

    Answer: It was cut off with Israel's fall in Acts 7.

    Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

    Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

    Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 26:21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

    1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

    They became followers of those churches in the sense that they too had ended up suffering for their faith at the hands of their own fellow countrymen, just as those churches had suffered for their faith in the hands of their own fellow, but unbelieving; Jews.

    2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

    See that - they continue in the same resistence of the Spirit for which God in His wrath concluded them having continued in the uncircumcision of the heart of their fathers before them.

    Question 7: If one preached to someone today about Peter's gospel and they believed it, would it save them? (into the kingdom)

    Answer: No.

    Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Remember Peter's words in Acts 15 that in contrast to them; those Gentiles had not needed to submit to circhimcision and the Law?

    Remember Paul's words to Peter in Galatians 2 that although they were not sinners of the Gentiles (had never been unclean because they had been circumcised and had kept the Law) they had nevertheless been found sinners?

    Whereas Peter was saved as a lawkeeping Jew who had believed Moses that Jesus was the Christ - Circumcision of the heart; when that was the Dispensation - Paul was saved under the New Dispensation as a Law keeping Jew who's heart was in UNcircumcision - for his having not believed Moses that Jesus was the Christ (back when that was the Dispensation).

    And the issue in the Gospel of the Kingdom is more than simply believing that Jesus was its Prophesied Christ.

    There is also the issue of who that gospel was for; and all that that and its' Kingdom is about.

    And that is no longer on the table til some point after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; when Israel's Prophetic clock starts up again at some point after this age.

    Anyway, that's my long wind on all this

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    When you think on the Rapture in light of the Mystery's being a Mystery parenthesis within Israel's own Prophesied parenthesis...

    ...actually; the Rapture is not PreTrib...

    ...rather; it is PreProphecy.

    Because it is before Israel's Prophetic clock starts up again.

    And not only does said clock not start up again right away after the Rapture; but neither does its' Trib.

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