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Thread: You Must Work Out Your Salvation

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Hare, hare, hunh?

    You need to stay away from that Bong, Mindless.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    But this does not pass the test of Rom 8:4 which is the most involved of Paul's declarations about how to relate justification and personal transformation. One is cause and one is effect. If there is no effect, the cause never took place.

    1, justification is what God did in Christ for us. This deals with debt.
    2, transformation is what God does in us through the Spirit. This deals with sin's stains.

    In 8:4 he puts no value on people doing the Law 'kata sarka'--according to flesh or human nature. That's what he used to be like. There is no Spirit at work. But likewise he never sees a Christian who believes on justification who is Spirit-less. Instead 'dikaioma' is produced in that person. Not because the person is obligating God, nor thinks he can, but in excited response to God's gift of justification.
    When Paul speaks of the Law, he speaks of the Torah. And he's right: The Torah does not save. But works that Jesus told us to do, prompted by the Holy Spirit are salvific.

    Another important thing to remember is that we cannot earn our salvation,but we can merit it. There is a difference. The difference between "earn" (or earning) and "merit" is important.

    God gives us the grace to do meritorious works, but it is an act of the will to actually cooperate with that grace and do them. We are not puppets on a string that automatically do good works because you have become a Christian as some people suggest. You must exercise your will to actually DO them. That is why they are works.

    But again, that does not mean we can "earn" our salvation. Let me give an analogy:

    Let us say that I tell my 7-year old boy that he needs to "earn his keep" by doing chores. Or let's say that he "earns" his allowance by taking the garbage out. Now there is NO WAY that a 7-year old can ever earn the food, shelter, medical care, and everything else I provide for him. BUT: Because I am his father, and because I made a promise to him, I will keep my word if he does his chores. If he does not, then he will not receive his reward.

    By doing his "chores", he "merits" what I give him. He does not "earn" it because I do not "owe" him anything. But he does "merit" it because I gave my word that I would reward him. This is what a good father does because it teaches values and helps us grow, and Our Father in heaven is the wisest Father of all.

    Therefore, if God promises to reward our good works with salvation, it does not mean we "earned" it, it simply means he made a promise. BUT: If we do not do these things, we will not receive our promised reward.

  3. #63
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    I guess I win

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    I guess I win
    Nope. The following is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    But this does not pass the test of Rom 8:4 which is the most involved of Paul's declarations about how to relate justification and personal transformation. One is cause and one is effect. If there is no effect, the cause never took place.

    1, justification is what God did in Christ for us. This deals with debt.
    2, transformation is what God does in us through the Spirit. This deals with sin's stains.

    In 8:4 he puts no value on people doing the Law 'kata sarka'--according to flesh or human nature. That's what he used to be like. There is no Spirit at work. But likewise he never sees a Christian who believes on justification who is Spirit-less. Instead 'dikaioma' is produced in that person. Not because the person is obligating God, nor thinks he can, but in excited response to God's gift of justification.
    Rom. 5:6-8 proves it is right.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Nope. The following is right.
    Rom. 5:6-8 proves it is right.
    One verse does not negate the whole of the Bible. Thats just stupid.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    One verse does not negate the whole of the Bible. Thats just stupid.
    You can't be referring to Rom. 5:6-8, as that is three verses, not one.



    Further, those three passages are based on an argument begun all the way in Romans 1:16 and ending at Romans 5:21.

    That's a total of 123 verses, not your supposed "one."

    All pointing to, and culminating in...Romans 5:6-8.

    Put another way...

    Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Put away your pagan based tradition - the RCC - and trust in Romans 1:18-3:31.

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    Now, if you wish to call doing so "stupid" well, its your "barbecue."

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post

    We Can Work It Out

    By Tim Staples - source link

    (Quoted with permission)



    About Tim Staples:
    http://www.catholic.com/profiles/tim-staples

    Nowhere in the Bible were babies baptized. Baptizing is to be done by submersion ... just like Jesus was. In ALL things we are to walk in Jesus' foot steps. The submersion symbolizes death, burial and resurrection accepting Christ as ones Savior.

    Babies were dedicated not baptized in biblical times. Not one instance of a baby being baptized by any of the apostles.

    It is not "our works" .... it is the work Jesus does in us .... it is His works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleos View Post
    Nowhere in the Bible were babies baptized........
    So what. Nowhere in the Bible is there a Bible either. So what.

  9. #69
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    Paul wrote an entire letter to the Galatians refuting your assertion. He suggested that those who teach works salvation should go emasculate themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post

    We Can Work It Out

    By Tim Staples - source link

    (Quoted with permission)



    About Tim Staples:
    http://www.catholic.com/profiles/tim-staples

  10. #70
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    Philippians 2: 1. If then I can appeal to you as the followers of Christ, if there is any persuasive power in love and any common sharing of the Spirit, or if you have any tender-heartedness and compassion, make my joy complete by being of one mind, 2. united by mutual love, with harmony of feeling giving your minds to one and the same object. 3. Do nothing in a spirit of factiousness or of vainglory, but, with true humility, let every one regard the rest as being of more account than himself; 4. each fixing his attention, not simply on his own interests, but on those of others also. 5. Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ Jesus. 6. Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped. 7. Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men. 8. And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross. 9. It is in consequence of this that God has also so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other, 10. in order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, 11. and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the glory of God the Father. 12. Therefore, my dearly-loved friends, as I have always found you obedient, labour earnestly with fear and trembling--not merely as though I were present with you, but much more now since I am absent from you--labour earnestly, I say, to make sure of your own salvation. 13. For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire. 14. Be ever on your guard against a grudging and contentious spirit, 15. so that you may always prove yourselves to be blameless and spotless--irreproachable children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as heavenly lights in the world, 16. holding out to them a Message of Life. It will then be my glory on the day of Christ that I did not run my race in vain nor toil in vain.


    (If our "faith" doesn't produce good fruit, then it isn't actual faith.)

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    Philippians 2: 1. If then I can appeal to you as the followers of Christ, if there is any persuasive power in love and any common sharing of the Spirit, or if you have any tender-heartedness and compassion, make my joy complete by being of one mind, 2. united by mutual love, with harmony of feeling giving your minds to one and the same object. 3. Do nothing in a spirit of factiousness or of vainglory, but, with true humility, let every one regard the rest as being of more account than himself; 4. each fixing his attention, not simply on his own interests, but on those of others also. 5. Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ Jesus. 6. Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped. 7. Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men. 8. And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross. 9. It is in consequence of this that God has also so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other, 10. in order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, 11. and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the glory of God the Father. 12. Therefore, my dearly-loved friends, as I have always found you obedient, labour earnestly with fear and trembling--not merely as though I were present with you, but much more now since I am absent from you--labour earnestly, I say, to make sure of your own salvation. 13. For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire. 14. Be ever on your guard against a grudging and contentious spirit, 15. so that you may always prove yourselves to be blameless and spotless--irreproachable children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as heavenly lights in the world, 16. holding out to them a Message of Life. It will then be my glory on the day of Christ that I did not run my race in vain nor toil in vain.


    (If our "faith" doesn't produce good fruit, then it isn't actual faith.)

    Okay, so what are you saying in regard to the OP?

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