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Thread: The Things That Differ

  1. #16
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    What if Israel had repented back then; what then of Paul and the Mystery?
    Then Jesus would have returned in the clouds for the final judgement, without the need for Paul
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Then Jesus would have returned in the clouds for the final judgement, without the need for Paul
    Consider that Paul and The Mystery* are not a "replacement" of Israel and the Prophetic aspect of God's Two-Fold Plan and Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery.

    _______

    * In my understanding, just as the Prophetic aspect is one aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose but is comprised of various aspects as to Israel, The Mystery is also singular, not plural.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Consider that Paul and The Mystery* are not a "replacement" of Israel and the Prophetic aspect of God's Two-Fold Plan and Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery.

    _______

    * In my understanding, just as the Prophetic aspect is one aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose but is comprised of various aspects as to Israel, The Mystery is also singular, not plural.
    So God always intended to bring the Gentiles in
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Let me see if I can lay out my understanding clearly, and without being to long winded...

    God has a TWO-Fold Plan and Purpose by which He will bring glory to Himself In His Son Through the Spirit.

    This purpose is comprised of TWO folds, or aspects: Prophecy and Mystery.

    Prophecy concerns how He will bring about the Earthly aspect of the above in His Son through the Spirit in the Israel of God as His Kingdom of Priests, over all the nations of the Earth.

    The Mystery concerns how He will bring about the Heavenly aspect of the above in His Son through the Spirit in a New Creature: the Body of Christ over the Heavenly Realm.

    The Israel of God will be comprised of the physical seed of Jacob who believe on the Son and those Gentiles on the Earth who submit to Israel's Covenant of Circumcision and the Law.

    The balance of the Gentiles on the Earth will not be blessed with Israel.

    Rather, through Israel, under how that will work during Israel's Millennial reign.

    The Body of Christ is a New Creature comprised of formerly lost Jews and Gentiles this side of Israel's TEMPORARY fall.

    At some point after all that; the Lord will turn it all back unto the Father.

    My oddball question was in light of all that.

    I ask myself those kinds of questions...

    ...for what they cause me to have to reflect on as to where I might be off on one thing or another, but also...

    ...for what they both allow me to see even clearer...

    ...as well as for what else I might be able to see that I'd not seen before...

    ...or might not have, but for my oddball questions.

    I also often find all that a great help later in other areas when I study said other areas out...

    Very often I'll find that something I had previously looked at but had not been able to sort out...has either sorted itself out the next time I look at it, or does so, right before my eyes...

    What the Apostle Paul refers to as beholding as in a mirror the breadth, and depth, and length, and height...that is all the fulness of God in the Son by the Spirit.

    This is The Mystery - thirteen short Epistles in contrast to how huge the balance of Scripture is, and yet, its' own endless, bottomless ocean of wonderous delight as to glory of the Father in His Son Son by the Spirit, in its' own right!

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    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Let me see if I can lay out my understanding clearly, and without being to long winded...

    God has a TWO-Fold Plan and Purpose by which He will bring glory to Himself In His Son Through the Spirit.

    This purpose is comprised of TWO folds, or aspects: Prophecy and Mystery.
    Danoh, what if the Jews repented and accepted Christ and there was no stoning of Stephen? What do you think would have happened in God's plan?
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Danoh, what if the Jews repented and accepted Christ and there was no stoning of Stephen? What do you think would have happened in God's plan?
    Feel free to ask yourself that question; see what it allows the seeing of.

    And while you are asking it of yourself; observe how you go about attempting to solve for its answer; observe both what principles you appear to either follow and or break.

    As you do, write them down to yourself; worded as a principle....

    'Okay, what principle or principles, does (Moses; the Lord; Paul; or whomever) appear to be following here?' And or 'what principle or principles does this writer appear to be basing his assertions on, here; in this passage?'

    Write out your findings to yourself worded as principles you can then rely on and or avoid consciously...

    I constantly do this kind of thing.

    It's been a great resource whenever I have sought to study out one thing or another...

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    Had Israel repented then Jesus would have returned and set up Israel's Kingdom.

    After that it isn't clear how thing would have proceeded because then it would be like the Preterists wrongly think it is now and all of Israel's prophecies would have been fulfilled.

    There could still have been a Body of Christ and a Grace Gospel but it seems it likely would have waited until after Israel's Kingdom period had come to an end unless God simply decided to have a second group of believers that had nothing at all to do with Israel. The point is that its all speculation. We don't have any way of knowing because everything in the New Testament is all based on the facts of history the way it did actually happen. If it had happened differently then things would be different. That's obviously a simplistic thing to say but I'm not sure there's much else that can be said.

    You know what's cool though! We worship a God that would not have broken in half had things not worked out in a particular way. Regardless of how things turn out, our God is the only wise and poweful and just God and He is more than able to overcome any obstacle and defeat any enemy without having to fix the game in advance or to sneak a peak into the future to see what was going to happen.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    By the way - welcome to the MAD Forum; Clete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    By the way - welcome to the MAD Forum; Clete.
    Looks like I'm in now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Consider that Paul and The Mystery* are not a "replacement" of Israel and the Prophetic aspect of God's Two-Fold Plan and Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery.

    _______

    * In my understanding, just as the Prophetic aspect is one aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose but is comprised of various aspects as to Israel, The Mystery is also singular, not plural.
    Yes, and there would be no fulness of him that filleth all in all.
    That would not work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Yes, and there would be no fulness of him that filleth all in all.
    That would not work.
    Yep...

    Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

    Nice; how those two passages fit together.

    In other words...

    Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    By the way - welcome to the MAD Forum; Clete.
    I didn't even know there was a MAD forum!
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I didn't even know there was a MAD forum!
    Lol - that's because you don't speculate enough

    Which reminds me - MAD is huge now - where are they that this wonderful home of ours is too often literally a ghost town?

    One 28er (only Paul's last 7 epistles, etc) did tell me he took a look around way back when; saw too much bickering and passed.

    Personally, as off as the 28er is; they still have alot that is worthy - because they focus so much on Paul's last 7 epistles - where all the advanced Bodt material is found.

    One tends to get really good at finer and finer distinctions within those areas one focuses on.

    An Orthodox Rabbi once shared with me some things from Ezekiel that cleared up some things for me in John's Revelation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Lol - that's because you don't speculate enough

    Which reminds me - MAD is huge now - where are they that this wonderful home of ours is too often literally a ghost town?

    One 28er (only Paul's last 7 epistles, etc) did tell me he took a look around way back when; saw too much bickering and passed.

    Personally, as off as the 28er is; they still have alot that is worthy - because they focus so much on Paul's last 7 epistles - where all the advanced Bodt material is found.

    One tends to get really good at finer and finer distinctions within those areas one focuses on.

    An Orthodox Rabbi once shared with me some things from Ezekiel that cleared up some things for me in John's Revelation.
    I don't even understand what real difference it makes. What do Acts 28 people believe different than I do other than the distinction between Acts 9 and Acts 28?

    Mostly it seems they want to make a big deal about water baptism and/or Communion observances and that kind of thing and mostly all they seem to accomplish is to turn the Gospel of Grace into a list of Thou shalt nots. Thou shalt not get water baptized, though shalt not take communion - ever, etc.

    And even the ones that make an effort not to do that feel to me like they're still just straining out gnats to swallow camels. It just makes things way too complicated.

    Besides, if Paul was the first in the Body of Christ and he entered that Body in Acts 9 then how does that not settle the debate? I don't get it.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Yo, Clete; here is a study of the Acts 28 Position from a Mid-Acts Perspective...

    He does a pretty good job of contrasting the main differences between what he understands as A9D and what the 28er understands as A28D.

    http://www.tcmusa.org/publications/h...ure/ACTS28.pdf

    Personally, they are brothers and sisters in the Lord.

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