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Thread: "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth" - The Catholic Church

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    Over 5000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Thus the Church is not exclusively the (Roman) Catholic Church.
    That's what I've been saying, and what the Church says too, infallibly.

    All those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are individual members of the Body of Christ.
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

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    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Oh sure! You're a regular Johnny Carson today aren't you fella?
    Have you had a few of your Friday night Natty Lights early, saint john?
    And your our resident Edward R. Murrow, ain't ya, Mayor? Why don't you head on down to your local city hall, Mayor, and suggest putting slot machines on downtown streets, instead of parking meters? You and your cronies would get a real kick out of that, wouldn't you, squirt?
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    That's what I've been saying, and what the Church says too, infallibly.

    All those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are individual members of the Body of Christ.
    How the chruch says it is problematic. The RCC says that those who are not Catholic are in imperfect union wit the church and imply that that imperfect union somehow impacts their state of grace. That is wrong. Grace is a gift from God that the church has nothing to do with. I may not be in perfect union with the RCC and I don't care because I am in perfect union with Christ.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    Over 5000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    The RCC says that those who are not Catholic are in imperfect union wit the church and imply that that imperfect union somehow impacts their state of grace.
    Explain.
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Explain.
    Note that us stated that the church and Christ are inseparable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    They're inseparable.

    Ephesians 5:29-30 (KJV)
    Saying you are in imperfect union with the Church is inseparable from Jesus is saying that a person is in imperfect union with Christ. What does it mean to be in imperfect union with Christ?
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Note that us stated that the church and Christ are inseparable.
    Yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Saying you are in imperfect union with the Church is inseparable from Jesus is saying that a person is in imperfect union with Christ. What does it mean to be in imperfect union with Christ?
    No. You said:
    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    The RCC says that those who are not Catholic are in imperfect union wit the church and imply that that imperfect union somehow impacts their state of grace.
    And I asked you to explain.
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Yeah.
    No. You said:
    And I asked you to explain.
    The answer to my question is the explanation. When somebody says you are inperfect union with my church, and by extension, with Christ it implies that a person is somehow "less saved" or has less grace from God.

    Is it a formal teaching of the church? No. Is it reasonably inferred by the teachings of the church? Yes.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    You can't touch me, Roman droid, with respect to biblical knowledge, and would not know the difference between the book of Daniel, and Daniel Boone.
    Correction - that's "can't THIS" - M.C. Hammer

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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    I don't know about good, but it is one of his more eloquent ones.
    Duh-HUR!
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    And now back to the topic at hand which nobody can or ever will refute:



    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post

    A brief excerpt from "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth"
    (
    source link):

    QUOTE:


    Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

    Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

    Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

    The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

    Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

    FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

    If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

    The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
    Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

    The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
    By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

    The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
    Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

    The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
    The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

    Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

    Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

    The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

    Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.


    END EXCERPT QUOTE



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    Over 5000 post club Cruciform's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    No one needs the RCC to teach them.
    That's not what the New Testament indicates (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6).
    "The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    I can see, saint john, that your spell of ecumenism that you learned from Dr. Breen is over.
    SaintJohn unscrambled:



    insta john




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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    When somebody says you are inperfect union with my church, and by extension, with Christ it implies that a person is somehow "less saved" or has less grace from God.
    Not less saved, but surely less grace, primarily because of being separated from the sacraments, primarily the Eucharist.
    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Is it a formal teaching of the church? No. Is it reasonably inferred by the teachings of the church? Yes.
    Disagree.

    I wasn't raised Catholic, were you? I'm curious your point-of-view with this, and there are a lot of "ex" Catholics here; didn't know if you are one.
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Not less saved, but surely less grace, primarily because of being separated from the sacraments, primarily the Eucharist.
    Disagree.

    I wasn't raised Catholic, were you? I'm curious your point-of-view with this, and there are a lot of "ex" Catholics here; didn't know if you are one.
    Yes, I was raised Catholic. As a Protestant, I am not separated from the sacraments particularly the Eucharist. Protestants marry and baptize and partake of the Eucharist.
    I find it interesting that you claim to disagree with my statement yet in the first sentence you state the those not in unity with the RCC do have less grace.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post



    And now back to the topic at hand which nobody can or ever will refute:
    No, respective members of the boc on TOL, the church, have "refuted" your made up "doctrine." Don't confuse your lack of reading comprehension skills, and your lack of spiritual discernment, due to 2 Cor. 4:4 KJV/1 Cor. 2:14 KJV, with any alleged lack of refuting, error, on our, the church's part.

    Can you dig it, Roman?

    Get saved.
    Saint John W

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