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Thread: Grace is unconditional but not universal

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    Nang attempts to sound more intelligent than she actually is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    God is not the author of sin.
    Well, your fellow Calvinist B57 would disagree with you. So would Nanja. B57 is Nanja's mentor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnet View Post
    What did Paul preach to the Corinthians when he first came to them?

    Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...

    Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach and this is what you believed.

    But you wont do as Paul and the Apostles did will you Nang?
    Would you specifically delineate the distinction between all noun cases for sins (plural articular hamartiai) and sins (plural anarthrous hamartiai) and sins (plural articular hamartemata) and sins (plural anarthrous hamartemata) and all their singular counterparts and the verb (hamartano) in its various moods, tenses, and voices, please?

    This is always a futile digression in conceptual perception based on over-simplified English semantic glosses.

    Jesus Christ was made (poieo) sin (hamartia singular ANARTHROUS) who knew no sin (hamartia singular ANARTHROUS). That means He was the scapegoat for every internal qualitative characteristic and (dys)functional activity of sin as the internal condition for all mankind for all ages.

    That does NOT equate to the same thing for each individual's sin (hamartia singular ARTICULAR) and/or all that comes forth from it, both internally in the heart and externally in action.

    If one can't begin there (and no one can or does) and know how and why that differs from singular articular hamartia (sin) or plural hamartia (sin) as articular OR anarthrous (which are NOT hamartemata), then this will be a round-robin of presuppositional misperception between false binaries focused on the wrong underlying understanding.
    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
    “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
    Would you specifically delineate the distinction between all noun cases for sins (plural articular hamartiai) and sins (plural anarthrous hamartiai) and sins (plural articular hamartemata) and sins (plural anarthrous hamartemata) and all their singular counterparts and the verb (hamartano) in its various moods, tenses, and voices, please?

    This is always a futile digression in conceptual perception based on over-simplified English semantic glosses.

    Jesus Christ was made (poieo) sin (hamartia singular ANARTHROUS) who knew no sin (hamartia singular ANARTHROUS). That means He was the scapegoat for every internal qualitative characteristic and (dys)functional activity of sin as the internal condition for all mankind for all ages.

    That does NOT equate to the same thing for each individual's sin (hamartia singular ARTICULAR) and/or all that comes forth from it, both internally in the heart and externally in action.

    If one can't begin there (and no one can or does) and know how and why that differs from singular articular hamartia (sin) or plural hamartia (sin) as articular OR anarthrous (which are NOT hamartemata), then this will be a round-robin of presuppositional misperception between false binaries focused on the wrong underlying understanding.
    I see now that you are fool on a fool's errand

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Well, your fellow Calvinist B57 would disagree with you. So would Nanja. B57 is Nanja's mentor.
    In all fairness, B57 is way out there beyond mainstream Calvinism.
    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
    “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
    Would you specifically delineate the distinction between all noun cases for sins (plural articular hamartiai) and sins (plural anarthrous hamartiai) and sins (plural articular hamartemata) and sins (plural anarthrous hamartemata) and all their singular counterparts and the verb (hamartano) in its various moods, tenses, and voices, please?

    This is always a futile digression in conceptual perception based on over-simplified English semantic glosses.

    Jesus Christ was made (poieo) sin (hamartia singular ANARTHROUS) who knew no sin (hamartia singular ANARTHROUS). That means He was the scapegoat for every internal qualitative characteristic and (dys)functional activity of sin as the internal condition for all mankind for all ages.

    That does NOT equate to the same thing for each individual's sin (hamartia singular ARTICULAR) and/or all that comes forth from it, both internally in the heart and externally in action.

    If one can't begin there (and no one can or does) and know how and why that differs from singular articular hamartia (sin) or plural hamartia (sin) as articular OR anarthrous (which are NOT hamartemata), then this will be a round-robin of presuppositional misperception between false binaries focused on the wrong underlying understanding.
    Perhaps you should just tell us what you think it means.

    Christ died for the sins of us.

    Seems pretty straight forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
    Would you specifically delineate the distinction between all noun cases for sins (plural articular hamartiai) and sins (plural anarthrous hamartiai) and sins (plural articular hamartemata) and sins (plural anarthrous hamartemata) and all their singular counterparts and the verb (hamartano) in its various moods, tenses, and voices, please?

    This is always a futile digression in conceptual perception based on over-simplified English semantic glosses.

    Jesus Christ was made (poieo) sin (hamartia singular ANARTHROUS) who knew no sin (hamartia singular ANARTHROUS). That means He was the scapegoat for every internal qualitative characteristic and (dys)functional activity of sin as the internal condition for all mankind for all ages.

    That does NOT equate to the same thing for each individual's sin (hamartia singular ARTICULAR) and/or all that comes forth from it, both internally in the heart and externally in action.

    If one can't begin there (and no one can or does) and know how and why that differs from singular articular hamartia (sin) or plural hamartia (sin) as articular OR anarthrous (which are NOT hamartemata), then this will be a round-robin of presuppositional misperception between false binaries focused on the wrong underlying understanding.
    I believe the scriptural passage of Hebrews 2:9-11 makes such distinction by describing Jesus tasting death for every man, while bringing "many sons unto glory."

    The purpose of His being made sin unto death, was not for the purpose of universal atonement, but rather, to make the "captain of their (the ~many sons~)salvation perfect through sufferings."

    ???
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnet View Post
    Perhaps you should just tell us what you think it means.

    Christ died for the sins of us.

    Seems pretty straight forward.
    Who is "us?"
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    "Deciding to believe" the Gospel message is an action.

    I believe faith is first and foremost, a capacity.

    A new capacity of spirit, given to sinners by God the Holy Spirit.

    The capacity to believe the Gospel requires a new heart (affection, love) for God, that is not inherent in the unbelieving hearts of any sinner. And the capacity to believe the Gospel requires a new mind; new ears to hear; new eyes to see . . all of which change comes from without the sinner.

    The capacity of faith is gifted to sinners by the grace of God, when He wills, and to whom He wills to bestow it. Romans 9:15-16

    This is the miracle of regeneration (John 3:1-8) that raises dead sinners to new life, enabling them to live and serve God in new accordance with the Spirit, Will, and Mind of God, as never before. This regeneration gives men the capacity to have faith in God's promises, and results in faithful actions of obedience and service to righteousness.

    Placing all emphasis on human choice, robs God of His glory as manifested in His power to resurrect. Regeneration is a resurrection from death to life; from darkness to light; to enjoy the capacity of living faith that contrasts with the condemnation of unbelief and sure death.

    Regeneration/resurrection precedes the acts of repentance and faithfulness.

    This is the teaching of John Chapter 3 and John 15:1-8; John 16:8-15
    Nonsense - it is an agreement with both the hopeless condition of man and the solution that Scripture relates through the following process:

    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Verse 17 is not some magic zapped by the Spirit into believing formula. Rather, it is a summary of the steps laid out in the previous verses.

    Also, note again, the free will choice just described in verse 16, in the following...

    Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnet View Post
    Perhaps you should just tell us what you think it means.
    It's almost impossible to directly do so in this venue, since so few have any grid in their English-sculpted hearts and minds for Greek anarthrous nouns.

    And it's not about what I "think" it means; it's about what it "does" mean by specific linguistic understanding.

    Christ died for the sins of us.
    This isn't acting or actions. It's a plural noun, and it's referring to internal and/or externalized results of various qualities of the sin condition that is a noun.

    Christ didn't die for the resulting outer acts (hamartemata). They're included because of their internal source within the nature (physis) of our being (ousia) as the internal functionalities of our hypostasis (underlying reality of existence).

    Everyone is arguing over misrepresented crumbs of half-truths.

    Seems pretty straight forward.
    It only "seems so" when English thinkers/speakers presume Greek nouns are English verbs or the nouns resulting FROM verbs.

    Just because Jesus was made every inward qualitative characteristic and (dys)functional activity of every man's sin (the articular noun as the condition of lack, for sin is not a "something" but a "somethinglessness" as a void), it has nothing to do with that death being applied to anyone for their actual sin.

    You're thinking of individuals' actings and resulting actions as sins. That's not what hamartiai plural articular is referring to. So it's an invalid question from and erroneous perspective of presupposition.

    The English-sculpted mind is a theological prison of tangential conceptualization. That's why I asked you (or anyone else) to clearly define sins, sins, sins, sins, and their singular counterparts. They're not the same, and the subtleties escape English minds.
    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    I believe the scriptural passage of Hebrews 2:9-11 makes such distinction by describing Jesus tasting death for every man, while bringing "many sons unto glory."
    Exactly. That's possibly the best reference to get a glimpse of it.

    The purpose of His being made sin unto death, was not for the purpose of universal atonement, but rather, to make the "captain of their (the ~many sons~)salvation perfect through sufferings."

    ???
    Yes, absolutely. It's about HIM much more than it's about US. We benefit from the price He paid. And that was Him becoming every last internal qualitative characteristic and functional activity of every man's sin condition so that all CAN BE covered by His blood and also without excuse to frustrate (set aside) grace.

    Jesus wasn't made singular articular hamartia (THE sin, as our condition of lack as the missing share or part). He wasn't made articular or anarthrous hamartiai. He wasn't made the singular or plural articular or anarthrous hamartema/ta. He wasn't made the verb hamartano.

    It's arguing over false semantic crumbs that becomes an endless false binary debate. Arminians are always referring to sins as resulting acts from acting. That would be hamartemata, whether articular or anarthrous.

    But everyone has to employ their self-determined absolutes because they're all autonomous Synergists pretending to be the Monergistic creative force of their own salvation.

    There's no valid viable middle ground for this false binary. If it's about sins as the resulting acts of the verb; then either Jesus Christ was an unparalleled sinner and all men are saved to the uttermost along with Satan and the host of hell, or only the hyperest of all Calvinists are correct in God maliciously torturing most of mankind for all everlasting to get His sadistic jollies (which would violate His many incommunicable and communicable attributes).

    It would be better to understand the truth that reconciles ALL aspects of layered binaries of alleged belief.
    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
    “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

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    All that just to say we are not sinners because we sin, rather; we sin be because we are sinners.

    But some need their own version of the likes of an R.C. Sproul, ever impressing himself with how well versed all that time the endless Scholaticism of men has made him.

    Good grief!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    All that just to say we are not sinners because we sin, rather; we sin be because we are sinners.

    But some need their own version of the likes of an R.C. Sproul, ever impressing himself with how well versed all that time the endless Scholaticism of men has made him.

    Good grief!
    It's not Scholasticism, moron. It's scripture instead of English conceptualization by deceived and depraved minds.
    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    All that just to say we are not sinners because we sin, rather; we sin be because we are sinners.
    Everything here is verbs and the noun hamartolos. You're clueless. It isn't the binary you presuppose.

    You have no idea what sin (the noun) is. None.

    Nobody is a sinner until they sin (the verb). But that verb comes from the noun that is their inner condition from which they will inevitably sin (the verb).

    The wages of sin (the noun, as the inner condition) is death (the meat price in the market, so it's physical).

    It's not the wages of sinNING, the verb. That's why unborn children die. There is sin in them, even though they haven't sinNNED as acting and resulting actions.
    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
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    Quote Originally Posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post

    It's about HIM much more than it's about US. We benefit from the price He paid.
    Agreed!



    And that was Him becoming every last internal qualitative characteristic and functional activity of every man's sin condition so that all CAN BE covered by His blood and also without excuse to frustrate (set aside) grace.
    Yes. Ever since God provided bloody animal skins for A&E in the garden, to cover their lack of righteousness, not for the purpose to forgive them, but with the purpose to allow them ~time~ to propagate the human race in order to fulfill the purpose of God . . . this early atonement has pointed to the promise and the purpose of the Savior who would be sent into the world from God.

    IOW's and likewise, the blood of Christ shed on the cross is providing a ~covering time~ for all the "many sons of glory" to be manifested and saved.

    That at least, is how I read & comprehend the scriptures . . .
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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