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Thread: Open View and Preterism

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    STAND UP Tambora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post

    If AMR does not claim Open Theists to be reprobates, he is correct to not do so. I have never called Open Theists reprobates, either.
    If one can believe a false religion and not be reprobate, then what's the problem?
    Whatever they believe is just what GOD predestined them to believe, right?

    God Bless America

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    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    I am not hateful, but I am not stupid and accepting of false gospels either.

    If AMR does not claim Open Theists to be reprobates, he is correct to not do so. I have never called Open Theists reprobates, either.

    I only warn that Open Theism is a false religion that denies the one true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
    Oh, good. I'm glad I can deny the true gospel of Jesus Christ without being a reprobate.

    Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    There is only one Gospel Truth.

    You Open Theists oppose this biblical reality.

    Nothing you can say or post can change this reality, for there is only One God, one Savior, one redemption, one Covenant promising One Everlasting Life with the One and only God Almighty.

    You play "Christian," all while denying Christ as being the sole fulfillment of all of the above.

    I am sick and tired of all of your false games, false teachings, and personal lies . . .
    Says the gal who claims God believed for her.

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  7. #94
    Silver Member Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Says the gal who claims God believed for her.
    What a stupid thing to say. Can you quote me so claiming?

    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Silver Member Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Oh, good. I'm glad I can deny the true gospel of Jesus Christ without being a reprobate.

    Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app
    Do you know the definition of a "Reprobate?"

    Such is a soul eternally damned by God.

    But none of us have any idea about living souls, who today do not believe the Gospel Truth, who God might enlighten tomorrow with His grace to see and be justified by His gift of faith.

    So none of us have the knowledge or right to deny that possibility of saving grace from God to another, do we?

    None of us know the eternal fate of another.

    Only God knows who He has chosen for His own, and who will be left in unbelief forever.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    What a stupid thing to say. Can you quote me so claiming?

    I thought it was stupid when you said we can't believe...that God has to do it for us.

    Are you backing off now, or is this Mr. Nang?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Oh, good. I'm glad I can deny the true gospel of Jesus Christ without being a reprobate.

    Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app
    Yeah, no worries at all!

    God Bless America

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    Silver Member Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I thought it was stupid when you said we can't believe...that God has to do it for us.

    Are you backing off now, or is this Mr. Nang?
    I, Nang, never said God believed for me. I believe that God raised me from death to life, and through the power and guidance of His Holy Spirit, enabled me, by changing my heart, mind, and will, to believe in the righteousness of Jesus Christ unto everlasting life.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    I, Nang, never said God believed for me. I believe that God raised me from death to life, and through the power and guidance of His Holy Spirit, enabled me, by changing my heart, mind, and will, to believe in the righteousness of Jesus Christ unto everlasting life.
    AH, I see now. You believe God raised YOU from death to life, and I believe God raised the Lord Jesus Christ from death to life. So your gospel is a lot different than the one Paul preached.

    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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    Silver Member Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    AH, I see now. You believe God raised YOU from death to life
    Ephesians 2:4-7
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    This is definitely Lower Wacker Drive. musterion's Avatar
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    You folks all better be careful. You'll find yourself standing before the locked pearly gates and John Calvin will say "Depart from me, I never knew you."
    Not a single cluster of living fruit was, or ever will be, harvested from the tree of legality. Law can only produce “dead works,” from which we need to have conscience purged just as much as from “wicked works.”

    C. H. Mackintosh


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Do you know the definition of a "Reprobate?"

    Such is a soul eternally damned by God.

    But none of us have any idea about living souls, who today do not believe the Gospel Truth, who God might enlighten tomorrow with His grace to see and be justified by His gift of faith.

    So none of us have the knowledge or right to deny that possibility of saving grace from God to another, do we?

    None of us know the eternal fate of another.

    Only God knows who He has chosen for His own, and who will be left in unbelief forever.
    Jesus knew: he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18b) But in that knowledge was an admission (can it even be called a hope?) that some would start to believe, and thus would cease to be condemned. Thus, is there even a category like what you describe? Did Jesus ever deny anyone the ability to repent and believe? Does God ever deny anyone, even the wicked of the ability to repent, since that's what He keeps asking people to do all the time?

    [Eze 18:20-21 KJV] 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. ... 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    That's pretty good news, don't you think, to be removed from the condemnation of death and promised life?

    So, here's how I'm going to relate it back to my OP:

    If God condemns the wicked and gives life to the repentant ones, and it's based on what the people do (whether this is a matter of eternal life or not, I'm not entirely sure), can He prophecy too far in the future about individuals without ensuring their condemnation (not allowing for belief in John 3:18, or not allowing for repentance in Ez 18:21).

    Now I'll reintroduce the text from my ellipsis in the Eze 18:20 quote:
    [Eze 18:20-21 KJV] 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Can God foretell doom for specific people that are the descendants of wicked men without violating His assertion here? Doesn't it compress the response time to a particular generation, or maybe just a few (the sins of the fathers will be visited on the children and grandchildren up to the third and fourth generation (Num 14:18))?

    OR...

    Does it open the door to the possibility of the people He's dooming actually repenting and avoiding the doom?

    And if so, does the doom follow the actions (if later generations fall back into the wickedness of their progenitors or if other unrelated peoples do the same thing) and still count as a fulfillment of the prophecies? If Jesus says "this generation" and it doesn't come to pass, can it really mean some other generation, as a sword of Damocles over each following generation?

    And if the prophecy is intended as a rebuke, meant to stir the receiving generation to repentance, and they reject the message (don't repent), how do you read it when the foretold doom does not come? Isn't it a broken, or unfulfilled prophecy? Doesn't that make the prophet a false one?

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    Silver Member Nang's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Derf;5080166]

    [Eze 18:20-21 KJV] 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. ... 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    This scripture is not a futuristic prophechy, but a commission from God to believers to proclaim Truth and Gospel to all the world.

    It is also promise (Covenants) that unbelievers will die in their unbelief and believers will live by their faith in God.

    These promises (both Old and New Covenants) are sure. They have been the same since the beginning of time. This same message was proclaimed to Adam before he sinned, and it is the same message proclaimed by the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

    Romans 9:22-24

    That's pretty good news, don't you think, to be removed from the condemnation of death and promised life?
    Indeed. Such is the saving grace of God that is the promise of the New Covenant . . this is the Gospel message promised in Ezekiel 18:20.

    Those souls saved by the grace of God evidence they were never reprobate in the eyes of God. These elect were always predestined to be saved by faith in the righteous promises from God of everlasting life. John 3:16

    Ezekiel reveals the means God uses to call His elect and draw them to His Son. By the means of believers preaching Gospel Truth. Romans 10:14-18
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  19. #104
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I can respond wholly, rather than piecemeal, but sometimes the points need to be addressed individually. For instance, despite your whole post here, you have not yet addressed the idea that I tried to convey (I'm sure because my reasoning powers are faulty) that the fact of the sky being blue is not dependent on the transmission of the information to anyone. It is just a fact. God is also a fact. His existence doesn't depend on the ability of anyone to convey the concept of "God" or "existence"--God just is. "Reason" exists, too, but it does depend on someone's use of it. God uses reason, and He is the best and foremost user of reason, and He could never lose a debate. In that way, one could say, "God is reason", perhaps, but "reason" is not a comprehensive description of God, and "God" is way more than a description of "reason". Thus, the two are not fundamentally equivalent. I can make the same case for the statements "God is love" and "God is light". And you can readily see that "Light" is not "God"--we are not to worship the creation rather than the creator. Perhaps you didn't mean to do it, or perhaps I only thought you were doing it, but you made several statements that set up "reason" as equal to "God". We should not worship the thing that emanates from God as we do God Himself, though we can certainly (and should certainly) praise Him for reason.

    I think such statements, if intended, are dangerous. Reason is more than a creation of God, I'll admit--it is a attribute of God--but it falls short of being God, and while we might lift up an attribute of God in high praise to His name, if those who do violence to His name and honor also have access to and use that attribute, it cannot and should not be praised in the same way, as its use by those who disbelieve God is both a glory and a blasphemy of Him--a glory in that we can see how great God is to have bestowed the ability to reason on mankind, and a blasphemy that it is used to denigrate the bestower.

    I'm not meaning to try your patience, but I think the distinction is warranted.

    now back to our regularly scheduled program...
    Derf
    No time this morning except to post this video all about how human being invented the color blue. I think you'll see that animals can't possibly know that the sky is blue after watching this video. There was a time when we didn't know it.



    I'll respond to you posts as soon as time allows!

    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  20. #105
    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    No time this morning except to post this video all about how human being invented the color blue. I think you'll see that animals can't possibly know that the sky is blue after watching this video. There was a time when we didn't know it.



    I'll respond to you posts as soon as time allows!

    Clete
    No hurry, Clete. I understand the time pressure.

    Three points (and their times in the video):

    • :26 "Of course, blue existed."
    • 5:39 "Humans have always observed other colors, but just compartmented them in to black white and red..."
    • 8:28 What was "ultramarine" named after??? The already existing blue sea.


    These points show exactly what I was trying to say--that the knowledge of "blue" is different from the ability to convey the information. In all of the examples, the narrator is explaining that it was difficult for the people to convey the information they already had, similar to how dogs can't convey the information to us.

    I did find it odd that the rainbow paintings included blue in the sky and sea, but not in the rainbow, but it is another indication that the concept of "blue" predated the expression of "blue"--as far as we know.

    Why do I say "as far as we know"? Consider that Adam and Eve were created fully functioning and fully able to converse with God. It's quite possible, and I would suggest "likely", that they both recognized and were able to express the concept of "blue", but that somewhere between their time and ours, some of that ability of expression was lost, and regained, and lost, and regained. The video pointed out the Egyptians were able to make "blue", but that when the Roman Empire imploded, the knowledge was lost, along with the Latin word for it: Caeruleum (7:33). Did blueness cease to exist for awhile? Of course not--just the word for that blue material was no longer needed, since the material wasn't available any more.

    Here's a list of the uses of "blue" in the Old Testament, starting, interestingly enough, from the time the Israelites left Egypt:
    Exo 25:4
    Exo 26:1
    Exo 26:4
    Exo 26:31
    Exo 26:36
    Exo 27:16
    Exo 28:5
    Exo 28:6
    Exo 28:8
    Exo 28:15
    Exo 28:28
    Exo 28:31
    Exo 28:33
    Exo 28:37
    Exo 35:6
    Exo 35:23
    Exo 35:25
    Exo 35:35
    Exo 36:8
    Exo 36:11
    Exo 36:35
    Exo 36:37
    Exo 38:18
    Exo 38:23
    Exo 39:1
    Exo 39:2
    Exo 39:3
    Exo 39:5
    Exo 39:8
    Exo 39:21
    Exo 39:22
    Exo 39:24
    Exo 39:29
    Exo 39:31
    Num 4:6
    Num 4:7
    Num 4:9
    Num 4:11
    Num 4:12
    Num 15:38
    2Ch 2:7
    2Ch 2:14
    2Ch 3:14
    Est 1:6
    Est 8:15
    Jer 10:9
    Eze 23:6
    Eze 27:7
    Eze 27:24
    (And please note that I did my search at the Blue Letter Bible site.)

    But does that mean the sky ceased to be blue after the time of Esther? Of course not! Use your reasoning powers, Clete! "Blue" as a word (or other language versions of it) could be coined and forgotten numerous times over the course of human history, without ever disturbing the color of the sky. But it might disturb the ability of people to convey the information.
    Last edited by Derf; August 14th, 2017 at 03:48 PM.

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