Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
Satan acts in a manner consistent with his own nature
Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
He [Satan] is not consistent with ... his nature.
Huh?

Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
You don't find it curious that God declares His own name to be a form of the Law of Identity?
Yes, that is curious. But it doesn't mean that the law of identity predates God, rather God uses the law of identity to give a picture of Himself as eternally consistent. Thus, He is using reason to describe Himself. He's not using Himself to describe Himself, is He?


Sure! Irrational morons reproduce like rabbits on this website alone!
But that doesn't mean that what they say is true or that it corresponds to anything that is real (same thing).
I disagree. What they say is real in their minds (I hope, else they are trolls). In other words, they are writing what they are thinking. That thought is a unique creation of theirs, possibly influenced by others, but still their own thought. That thought actually exists! Therefore it is real. Maybe not rational, but real, nonetheless.


Why would I deny it? It's a metaphor of sorts I suppose but it seems an intuitively accurate one. Why would this have jumped out at you?
What is a metaphor? My point has been and still is that "reason" is not God, and too many people worship "reason" over God. Maybe it's similar to the multiple gods of ancient Greece or Egypt: one controls the wind, another the waves, one is for crops, another for animals, one can move fast, another speaks with wisdom. But our God is awesome, and does ALL things well (Mark 7:37).

You are conflating data with phonomena.
Data is collected information about phenomena. Phenomena exist without observation but data is that which you have after the phenomena have been observed and the information recorded. Light is scattered in a particular way by our atmosphere whether we are here to see it or not but it isn't "blue" until we see it and decide to call it that. See the difference?
I don't think so. "Data" is information that can be used for reasoning. From Merriam-Webster: Data is facts about something that can be used in calculating, reasoning, or planning. But the data/information/knowledge exists before any calculating/reasoning/planning starts. At least in our minds. If God is all-knowing, and He isn't required to do the things He does, then He must have knowledge (data) before He plans/calculates/REASONS.

Blue light is blue light even before we decide what to call it. "Blue" is merely an assigned term. We can know what the light looks like when it has been scattered without knowing that it is associated with the word "blue". The knowledge exists without any reasoning, just like data can exist without any use of it. Maybe there's not much point to it if not used for something, but that doesn't stop it from existing.

Of course they do! Don't you think that Satan would be better off if he stopped fighting God? Lucifer was not created evil. He chose to destroy himself and will go on destroying not only his own life but as many other lives as he can. God is life. To rebel against God is to rebel against life. To rebel against life is both irrational and immoral, by definition.
This I'm not sure about. I think that generally anybody is better off not rebelling any more, once one has started rebelling. Does that apply to Satan? I don't know. Would God apply Jeremiah 18:9 to Satan and his minions? Is there some reward, some reason for Satan to repent over continuing in his evil ways? Can he avoid his doom? If so, then why is it that Legion talked about the time of torment that seemed to be fixed and unavoidable? Maybe Satan can forestall his doom by being less adversarial (though I don't see any indication of such in scripture), or maybe he thinks the only way for him to avoid the punishment is to win the battle, so he continues. That may be completely rational for him to think.

How so? The tree either fell or it didn't. This is reality. If we make a statement about whether the tree fell that is consistent with reality then the statement is true. If we make a statement that is not consistent with reality then it is false. Reality is the final arbiter of any truth claim.
My point, perhaps poorly worded, is that if God's word depends on our reason, then it is on shaky foundations. It doesn't. God's word is true whether we recognize it or not--whether we are there to observe the tree fall or not.


Wow did you say a big mouth full here! I don't disagree with any of it. I have the feeling that you don't see all of what you just said but whether you do or not, you're on the right track. Stay on it.

God loves, he is loved and He is Love. We act Godly by loving God, ourselves and others. Likewise, He is both kind and Kindness, He is both just and Justice, He is merciful and Mercy, God is both wise and Wisdom and God is both rational and Reason.
I don't disagree, but I'm not sure how God being kind is different from Him being "Kindness". If you mean that He is the ultimate exhibitor of Kindness (or Justice or Mercy or Reason), fine. If you mean something else, I'm just not getting it.

Here's the key thing...

These are all different ways to say the same thing. It's just a matter of application and context. To say God is Love is to say that God is Reason.
I don't think I agree. You certainly can't apply that to every aspect of God. I.e., to say that God is Justice is NOT the same as saying God is Mercy. Why does it then apply in the case of Love vs Reason. I don't think it does.

Nope! I am NOT interpreting anything. The word Logos has a very clear meaning. The Calvinist translators be damned.
Why should I be more comfortable with the entirely meaningless English phrase "The Word became flesh..." as opposed to "Logic became flesh..."?
Why would you be less comfortable? Do you think saying "The tool for convincing someone of something became flesh," is really an improvement over "The Word became flesh"?

I already responded to this.
You cannot be rational while fighting Reason!
They fight God because they hate God. It isn't complicated. As I explained before, simply being consistent with a chosen path, doesn't make you rational if that chosen path is fundamentally irrational. Fighting against the God who is Reason and that gave you your existence is fundamentally irrational.
Your definitions are making it hard for you to see anything else. Try this: Suppose you invented a robot that was designed to mow your lawn, but you gave it some smarts. If that robot decided it would be better off not mowing lawns, and decided to move into your house and start using your credit cards, you would probably turn it off and sell it for scrap (or reprogram it). But if it figured out how to use its mower blade to kill you, then it would rationally fight against you in the hope that it would never have to mow your lawn again. It would fight against "Reason" (you, the one that programmed it and gave it existence) rationally. The difference, of course, is that God is able to over-power Satan, we trust, but we might not be able to over-power our robotic creations (the Terminator scenario). Does the robot know you well enough to know whether it can over-power you? Maybe Satan really thinks he can overpower God.



He is not consistent with reality or his nature. Lucifer was created an Arch Angel capable of standing in the direct presence of God Himself. He was created good and righteous. He chose to act against, not only that nature but against the God who sustains his very existence. God has seen fit to delay Satan's final judgment but that delay will not continue forever and when God's stay of judgment comes to an end, so will Satan and it will Satan's own fault, a result of his own irrational decisions and actions.
Some folks think Satan is doing exactly as he was created to do. I don't think so, for some fairly obvious reasons. But even if he was created good and righteous, what he does from here on out has to be based on what his options are at this point, not based on how he was created.