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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Lol, I was wondering if you'd thrown in the towel, STP, but I forgot you jump back in when heir posts

    You do realize she is a mightly Helen Crump in her own right; who never needs Andy to wet nurse her

    Good for you heir; stand your ground til fully persuaded otherwise; champ.
    Troublemaker -

  2. #77
    TOL Subscriber Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Troublemaker -
    He seems to enjoy causing dissension.

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  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Why not? Isn't the gospel of grace intended exactly for those who God otherwise would have given up on (meaning everyone, no difference), leaving grace as all that's left? But I may not understand your point?
    That would seem to indicate that everyone is considered Gentile (as there is no distinction and all are the same).

    But Paul seems to preach that Israel is not cast away (Rom 1:1-2).
    And that there is still a distinction between Gentiles and Israel (Rom 11:28).

    There is no distinction for the BOC.
    But I'm not sure we can flatly say that there is no Israel (distinct from Gentiles) at all at this time.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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  6. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    If God does not cast them away at the end of Acts, then he cannot have mercy on them all.
    Well, He doesn't have mercy on them all.
    He has partially blinded.
    Unless you think that the blindness has been lifted by the end of Acts.

    Casting away those that rejected Lord's earthly ministry and those that rejected Paul's ministry to the Jew first was an act of mercy on the Lord's part. This makes them on the same level with the pagan Gentile to whom the dispensation of the grace of God is for.
    If they are on the same level, then what happened to the blindness?
    Has that blindness ended as of yet?

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Silver Member SaulToPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Well, He doesn't have mercy on them all.
    He has partially blinded.
    Unless you think that the blindness has been lifted by the end of Acts.

    If they are on the same level, then what happened to the blindness?
    Has that blindness ended as of yet?
    Yes, I believe the blindness was in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    The grace was extended to all Gentiles (the fulness be come in) after Acts, after their "casting away".

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
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  10. #81
    TOL Legend musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    That would seem to indicate that everyone is considered Gentile (as there is no distinction and all are the same).
    In a sense, yes. Nationally, all nations are now as all nations were at Babel.

    But Paul seems to preach that Israel is not cast away (Rom 1:1-2).
    Right. When he wrote that, they weren't yet. Stumbled, fallen, partly blinded in unbelief, but not discarded. I think of it like this: that branch was broken off, sure enough, but it was still in God's hand. He hadn't cast it aside yet, so He could have still grafted it back in (Rom 11:23), pending their repentance. But we know they didn't. That's the only way it makes sense to me.

    And that there is still a distinction between Gentiles and Israel (Rom 11:28).
    Yes, then. Jews were even then personally no better than Gentile dogs (Rom 3:9) but God was still appealing to Israel.

    There is no distinction for the BOC.
    True.

    But I'm not sure we can flatly say that there is no Israel (distinct from Gentiles) at all at this time.
    I'm always willing to be shown wrong but a lot of Romans makes no sense to me if God was not yet, at the time Paul wrote it, still in some sense dealing with Israel as Israel.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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  12. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Yes, I believe the blindness was in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    The grace was extended to all Gentiles (the fulness be come in) after Acts, after their "casting away".

    Does that mean you think the blindness has already ended by the end of Acts?
    Cause if they are still being partially blinded, then God is still dealing with Israel as Israel.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    LIFETIME MEMBER steko's Avatar
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    Doesn't there have to be a group of people called Israel out of which there are 144,000 sealed during the time of Jacob's trouble?
    It seems to me that they already exist in the world when they come to be sealed and do not just 'poof' into existence at the point of sealing.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Does that mean you think the blindness has already ended by the end of Acts?
    Cause if they are still being partially blinded, then God is still dealing with Israel as Israel.
    Yes I do believe the blindness ended with the close of Acts.
    The Jew today has no advantage, but he did during Acts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Yes I do believe the blindness ended with the close of Acts.
    The Jew today has no advantage, but he did during Acts.
    OK, that would mean that the fullness of the Gentiles came at that time (Rom 11:25).

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Silver Member SaulToPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    OK, that would mean that the fullness of the Gentiles came at that time (Rom 11:25).
    Yes, I believe the casting away of them at the close of Acts ushered in the dispensation of the grace of God for you (alien) Gentiles.
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    LIFETIME MEMBER steko's Avatar
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    I've always considered Paul's phrase 'the fullness of the gentiles' to mean the completion of Paul's ministry to the nations and the resuming of GOD's program for national Israel in the 70th week.

    I'm listening and considering all this with an openness to change.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Yes, I believe the casting away of them at the close of Acts ushered in the dispensation of the grace of God for you (alien) Gentiles.
    OK, thanks.

    But just so nothing is left as 'vague' to any readers ......
    The fullness of the Gentiles came at the end of Acts, and the partial blinding was lifted at that time (end of Acts).
    And from the end of Acts onward (up to today), only the grace gospel is available to anyone and the kingdom gospel is available to no one.
    And at the rapture of the BOC, the grace gospel is no longer available, but the kingdom gospel is available again.

    Does that kinda sum it up?

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    I've always considered Paul's phrase 'the fullness of the gentiles' to mean the completion of Paul's ministry to the nations and the resuming of GOD's program for national Israel in the 70th week.

    I'm listening and considering all this with an openness to change.
    It all hinges on what 'fullness of the Gentiles" can mean.

    I'm listening too!
    Love you guys for taking the time to kick things around in an effort to nail things down and eliminate any vagueness we can.

    I just love this place!

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    LIFETIME MEMBER steko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    It all hinges on what 'fullness of the Gentiles" can mean.

    I'm listening too!
    Love you guys for taking the time to kick things around in an effort to nail things down and eliminate any vagueness we can.

    I just love this place!

    In my thinking, 11:25's 'the fullness of the Gentiles' would be complete when the Deliverer of 11:26 turns ungodliness from Jacob and the taking away of sins in 11:26 takes place when GOD makes His covenant with them.

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


    To me, the fullness of the Gentiles also corresponds to the building again of the house of David concerning the dynasty of the throne and it promised to Jesus Messiah (Mt 25:31), the Kingdom restored to Israel and with Israel's rise, the residue of the nations come to seek the Lord in Jerusalem through the Gospel of the Kingdom Mt 28:18-20 (see the Prophets concerning Israel to the nations).

    Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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