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  1. #2056
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    it takes time but
    A Careful Reading
    of Eusebius and Victorinus will show that they were not aware of Antipas or the churches in the Apocalypse. Eusebius spends a lot of time on martyrs and even mentions two from Pergamus but does not mention Antipas. He mentions all but one of the churches in the Apocalypse but never associates them with the Apocalypse. Victorinus has the same problem. He mentions all the churches Paul wrote to but never mentions the churches John wrote to and doesn't mention Antipas. So what were they looking at? The first version of the Apocalypse written by John the Baptist. It didn't have Antipas, the churches, or Jesus.

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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  3. #2057
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    history is
    A Reliable Method
    to verify the fulfillment of prophecy. It may be the only way. If your interpretation relies on the future, how can it be any better than any other interpretation that relies on the future? We have history. Let's use it. So how do you use history without some kind of interpretation? Some words like numbers and colors do not require any interpretation. That is where you start. You don't have to interpret history even though many are trying to rewrite it.

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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  7. #2059
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    the biggest number
    A Thousand Years
    is where you start. It is not where I started. I just assumed it didn't exist. So I started with 666 like everyone else and it led me to the thousand years. How? I searched Daniel for the word number and it referred to years. That led to Constantinople, a city with seven hills, and the capital of a Christian empire that lasted a thousand years. Really? Am I the first one to stumble across this?

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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  9. #2060
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    it takes time but
    A Careful Reading
    of Eusebius and Victorinus will show that they were not aware of Antipas or the churches in the Apocalypse. Eusebius spends a lot of time on martyrs and even mentions two from Pergamus but does not mention Antipas. He mentions all but one of the churches in the Apocalypse but never associates them with the Apocalypse. Victorinus has the same problem. He mentions all the churches Paul wrote to but never mentions the churches John wrote to and doesn't mention Antipas. So what were they looking at? The first version of the Apocalypse written by John the Baptist. It didn't have Antipas, the churches, or Jesus.

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    Eusebius mentions John the Apostle, and 'John the Presbyter,' both of whom were interred in Ephesus. He suggests that John the Presbyter may have written Revelation.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  10. #2061
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Eusebius mentions John the Apostle, and 'John the Presbyter,' both of whom were interred in Ephesus. He suggests that John the Presbyter may have written Revelation.
    all that is true
    eusebius mentions 5 of the six churches
    but
    never associates them with the apocalypse
    check it out
    thanks for stopping by
    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  12. #2062
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    all that is true
    eusebius mentions 5 of the six churches
    but
    never associates them with the apocalypse
    check it out
    thanks for stopping by
    It's important for many Protestants to understand that not all the undisputed books of the New Testament were written by Apostles, such as Mark's and Luke's Gospels. The matter of who wrote the book is the easiest one to answer whether a book ought to be seen as authoritative, but the books that are authorized with Apostolic authority are just as authoritative as the ones written by Peter, Paul, Matthew, and John directly. So therefore, even if it's true that Revelation was written by someone other than the Apostle John, the book remains rightly in the canon of the New Testament, and deserves the same reputation as authoritatively Christian.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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  14. #2063
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    666
    A Year
    to look at. So what happened in the year 666? Nothing. Historians are really good at staying away from that year. So you have to look around that year. You will find a lot. The second greatest religion was attacking the greatest religion. So pay attention to this.

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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  16. #2064
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    Revelation 15:2
    A Telling Verse
    that ties it all together. "2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." The Sea of Marmara was like a sheet of glass and Greek Fire was used by Constantinople to defeat the Arabs and the year was 666.

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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  18. #2065
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    666
    A Year
    to look at. So what happened in the year 666? Nothing. Historians are really good at staying away from that year. So you have to look around that year. You will find a lot. The second greatest religion was attacking the greatest religion. So pay attention to this.

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    The reason that I have trouble accepting 666 as a year is that it renders the copies of Revelation that we have that say '616' as being just arbitrarily unreliable. Those documents, if 666 is a year, compete with our otherwise very good reason to believe that the copying or transcription process that people used when producing newer versions of the originals was sound and of high quality. For a transcription error like '666' turning into '616,' without any reasonable explanation, is to cast serious doubt on our belief that the documents that we do have, accurately reflect the originals to us.

    666 being gematria however, explains the 666 and 616 discrepancy satisfactorily. It is when you compute the numerical value of 'Caesar Nero,' written in Hebrew letters, that you get 666. If instead you compute the numerical value of 'Caesar Nero' in either Greek or Latin letters (I don't remember which), you arrive at 616. This explains why there are some copies of Revelation where the number of the beast is 616.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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  20. #2066
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    The reason that I have trouble accepting 666 as a year is that it renders the copies of Revelation that we have that say '616' as being just arbitrarily unreliable. Those documents, if 666 is a year, compete with our otherwise very good reason to believe that the copying or transcription process that people used when producing newer versions of the originals was sound and of high quality. For a transcription error like '666' turning into '616,' without any reasonable explanation, is to cast serious doubt on our belief that the documents that we do have, accurately reflect the originals to us.

    666 being gematria however, explains the 666 and 616 discrepancy satisfactorily. It is when you compute the numerical value of 'Caesar Nero,' written in Hebrew letters, that you get 666. If instead you compute the numerical value of 'Caesar Nero' in either Greek or Latin letters (I don't remember which), you arrive at 616. This explains why there are some copies of Revelation where the number of the beast is 616.
    what if it is not gematria?
    what if it is not nero?
    maybe translators who think it is nero
    should not change the text because of that
    and
    if you look at all 60 english translations
    you will already know that it does, in your words,
    "cast serious doubt" on what we have
    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  22. #2067
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    666
    A Mark
    a beginning, a date stamp, which is the most common mark there is, and nearly everything made has it. To get the date right we must look at the Proleptic Julian calendar and 44 BC. The Gregorian calendar didn't start until 1582. We must also look at 622, the beginning of Islam and the beginning of the Islamic calendar. 666 of the Julian calendar marks the beginning of Islam. The Hijra.

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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  24. #2068
    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    what if it is not gematria?
    what if it is not nero?
    Well of course. If it isn't Nero, then it has to be something else. I set out my reasoning here, which explains the 666 and 616 versions of Revelation that we have. I haven't seen any other explanation that satisfactorily addresses this discrepancy.
    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    maybe translators who think it is nero
    should not change the text because of that
    Of course they shouldn't, but Bible translators imo seem to be some of the most unbiased and professional people wrt how they render a text; iow they don't seem to bias their work according to any particular Christian tradition, with some notable/notorious exceptions, e.g. the JW Bible. Even Catholic compared with Protestant Bibles really don't show any substantive differences.
    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    and
    if you look at all 60 english translations
    you will already know that it does, in your words,
    "cast serious doubt" on what we have
    What in particular are you referring to here? Is it just the '666' verse renderings (Rev13:18KJV), or all the surrounding verses? What I see is that Nero had coins minted, that read, 'Caesar Nero.' That's a mark (Rev13:16KJV). It's not the number of his name, but his actual name (Rev13:17KJV). And in order to buy and sell, you would need to deal in these coins, and presumably, you might use your right hand when doing so, which satisfies that particular passage, however it is rendered in various English versions. At least, that's what I think.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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  26. #2069
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    668 is
    A Date
    Edward Gibbon used to mark the first attack on Constantinople by the Arabs. More precisely he had it "Forty-six years after the flight of Mahomet from Mecca". That year was 622. If he had used an Islamic calendar converter, it would have calculated 666. Most versions of the bible "calculate the number".

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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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    not proof but
    A Fit
    with other pieces of the puzzle. You need a lot of pieces that fit to get a clear picture of what you have. That is why you start with the big pieces. Little pieces are way too easy to find and they will always fit your interpretation especially in the future. So there is no proof. Just historical pieces that seem to fit a literal interpretation. More pieces are better.

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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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