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Thread: chrysostom

  1. #2716
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    protecting the child
    A Top Priority
    but somehow protecting the Church and the clergy got in the way. Is this clericalism? Is this just protecting homosexuality? Homosexuals are being protected. Not the child. Not the unborn baby. Not the conservative seminarian or the orthodox priest. Silence seems to protect everyone but the child. Silence is expensive. Eight billion and counting. Bankruptcy and legal maneuvering of assets is now the order of the day. Protect the Church. Protect the clergy. Not the child. What's wrong with this picture?
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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  3. #2717
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    safe as
    A Child
    in the Catholic Church. The child is now safe. Not because there are no longer any predators out there but because everyone now knows you can't trust the priest, the bishop, or even the cardinal. Not a good solution to the problem. Protecting the Church didn't work so well. Now we have bishops calling on the pope to resign. Do you know anything about this? What could divide the Church like this? Silence is not working so well. Some are talking. The problem is being exposed. Finally.
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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  5. #2718
    TOL Legend annabenedetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    safe as
    A Child
    in the Catholic Church. The child is now safe. Not because there are no longer any predators out there but because everyone now knows you can't trust the priest, the bishop, or even the cardinal. Not a good solution to the problem. Protecting the Church didn't work so well. Now we have bishops calling on the pope to resign. Do you know anything about this? What could divide the Church like this? Silence is not working so well. Some are talking. The problem is being exposed. Finally.
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    Let's look at who wrote the letter:

    The 11-page text, written by noted anti-gay conservative Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, calls for Francis to resign over his alleged negligence. Vigano accuses Francis of covering up sexual abuse allegations against ex-Cardinal Theodore McCarrick in a letter that comes as multiple sexual abuse scandals again rock the church. The letter has sown division among leaders of Catholic Church in the United States.

    One longtime Vatican watcher and scholar of the Catholic Church says the open attack on Pope Francis — coming at an especially vulnerable time for him — appears to be mostly about personal animus and the Pope’s move to make the Church more accepting of gays. The Pope’s defenders have already started to dispute details in Vigano’s letter.Vigano’s letter contains serious allegations about Francis’ response to reports of McCarrick’s abuse. But it also includes a screed against homosexuals and it can be seen as a homophobic attack against Francis, who has worked to open up the church to people who are gay or lesbian, among others who are turned away in accordance with the church’s teaching.


    I think Pope Francis has made mistakes. What happened in Chile is what comes to my mind first. But do I think he's a good man, a good Pope? I do. He needs to do more, but he's hobbled by the system and maybe he's not the revolutionary the conservatives feared because he can't - or won't - explode the system.

    I think the job of being spiritual leader to over a billion people is too big of a job for anyone, to be honest. The Pope isn't responsible for what happened in the US, in Ireland, in the 40s and 50s and it's wrong to pin all that on him - but it's his job, right? Because he sits in the chair of Peter? Over a billion people, chrys. Most of whom don't even really understand their faith, do they? Or maybe even really believe it.

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

  6. #2719
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    Most of whom don't even really understand their faith, do they? Or maybe even really believe it.
    You can blame that on the bishops who are ignoring the teachings of the Church.
    Regarding Vigano's letter.
    It has been verified completely.
    Francis wants to normalize homosexuality. He must not realize that it is the problem with the Church today. Many Catholics understand this and will not accept what they are trying to do.
    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  8. #2720
    Over 2000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    You can blame that on the bishops who are ignoring the teachings of the Church.
    It's always justified to blame the leaders whenever an organization is blamable. Do you think that, even though the pope wears a funny hat, that the actual, "behind the scenes" but real, power structure of the Catholic Church is different from the pope as the leader, both religiously and also politically (as head of state of the Vatican)? iow do your think others have more power than Pope Francis in Catholicism?
    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    Regarding Vigano's letter.
    It has been verified completely.
    Francis wants to normalize homosexuality. He must not realize that it is the problem with the Church today. Many Catholics understand this and will not accept what they are trying to do.
    There's never been a waver wrt the moral teaching wrt homosexual sins against chastity (they are of basically equal gravity to all other grave sins against chastity). How to administrate the Church with either openly or openly-adjacent homosexual bishops is a categorically different subject.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  9. #2721
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    it's
    A Fact
    that most predators are married men. Most victims are girls. Most victims of the priest scandal are male. Most priests are homosexual. It is more difficult for a homosexual to be celibate. The primary problem is not pedophilia or celibacy. The primary problem is homosexual priests. The popes knew this. The bishops ignored the directives to no longer ordain them.
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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  11. #2722
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    How to administrate the Church with either openly or openly-adjacent homosexual bishops is a categorically different subject.
    If they can't respect or follow the teachings of the Church on homosexuality, how can we trust them with anything?
    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  13. #2723
    TOL Legend annabenedetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    Regarding Vigano's letter.
    It has been verified completely.
    No it hasn't.

    I'm not saying that there aren't complicit bishops. But the letter is suspect.

    Vigano letter exposes the putsch against Pope Francis

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

  14. #2724
    TOL Legend annabenedetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    Most victims of the priest scandal are male. Most priests are homosexual. It is more difficult for a homosexual to be celibate. The primary problem is not pedophilia or celibacy. The primary problem is homosexual priests. The popes knew this. The bishops ignored the directives to no longer ordain them.
    We've been in this conversation before, so I'm just going to paste from one of my responses.

    The Causes and Context of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests in the United States, 1950-2010

    First, the victims:
    pg. 10
    Most sexual abuse victims of priests (51 percent) were between the ages of eleven and fourteen, while 27 percent were fifteen to seventeen, 16 percent were eight to ten, and nearly 6 percent were under age seven. Over 40 percent of all victims were males between the ages of eleven and fourteen. It is worth noting that while the media has consistently referred to priest-abusers as “pedophile priests,” pedophilia is defined as the sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Yet, the data on priests show that 22 percent of victims were age ten and under, while the majority of victims were pubescent or postpubescent.

    A couple things here: First of all, 11-14 is a broad range, and it's reasonable to consider the possibility that the category is weighted toward the younger age. Looking to see if that cohort had ever been more narrowly defined, I found this:
    Karen Terry, the principal investigator for the team of academics from John Jay College of Criminal Justice that carried out the research in the other quantitative report said the average age of victims was 12.6 years, but the most common category of victims was a boy between 11 and 14. That category accounted for 40 percent of all victims, she said.

    Second, there's a caveat to the term pedophilia as it pertains to this study:

    p. 134
    Pedophilia is a diagnosable disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (discussed at length in Chapter 3). However, these data are based on the behavior exhibited by priests rather than diagnoses. The behaviors are consistent with that which would be exhibited by an individual diagnosed with this disorder.

    In other words, the study makes clear that there was not an attempt to clinically diagnose the priests with the disorder, but they're exhibiting the behaviors of the disorder.

    On to the priests, and whether or not homosexuality was the driving factor in abuse:

    pg. 63
    Priests who identified themselves at the time of treatment as gay/homosexual, bisexual, or confused, were more likely to have post-ordination sexual behavior than those who considered themselves to be heterosexual, though the nonheterosexual priests were more likely to participate in sexual behavior with adults.

    Priests with positive views toward homosexuality were most likely to have post-ordination sexual behavior, followed by those with a negative view and then those with a neutral view. Priests with positive views toward homosexuality were also more likely to have adult sexual partners, whereas priests with negative views toward homosexuality were more likely (but not significantly) to have minor victims than those with positive or neutral views.

    pg. 64
    The data do not support a finding that homosexual identity and/or pre-ordination same-sex sexual behavior are significant risk factors for the sexual abuse of minors.

    pg. 119
    The clinical data do not support the hypothesis that priests with a homosexual identity or those who committed same-sex sexual behavior with adults are significantly more likely to sexually abuse children than those with a heterosexual orientation or behavior.

    I'd referred upthread to the abuse being a crime of opportunity, and that it's notable that during those peak years of abuse, there were no girl altar servers yet. And here it is:

    pg. 102
    In sum, the Nature and Scope data indicate substantial situational impact on abuse. There is consistency in how male and female victims met the priests who abused them, where the abuse occurred, and under what circumstances the abuse took place. This consistency is evident despite the substantial difference in the percentage of males and females abused. Overall, the constancy of the data indicates that opportunity plays a significant role in the choice of victims.

    pg. 100
    Table 5.2 shows the gender of victims by five-year intervals. Interestingly, an increase in the number of male victims occurred during the peak years of the abuse crisis. Two explanations for this trend are possible: first, it can be hypothesized that priests would have been seeking out male victims to abuse, or alternatively, it can be hypothesized that priests would have been abusing the victims to whom they had access. If the first hypothesis is supported, an indication of this activity would be found in the clinical (individual-level) data. In other words, more men would be driven by pathologies related to the sexual abuse of minors. The clinical data do not support this explanation (see Chapter 3). If the second hypothesis is supported, then priests would have had more access to males and would have been committing more offenses with those to whom they had access. Though it is difficult to test this hypothesis with retrospective data, this assertion is supported by additional data, shown below in Table 5.2 and Figure 5.2. The data show that the highest percentage of males were abused at the peak of the crisis. This finding also corresponds with the highest levels of alcohol/substance use during the abuse time period, which is consistent with the literature on “situational” abuse of minors.459 Additionally, it should be noted that altar servers could only be male until the promulgation to the revisions of canon law in 1983 (and confirmed through letters from Pope John Paul II in 1992). The Table and Figure below show the substantial increase in the percentage of female victims in the late 1990s and 2000s, when priests had more access to them in the church.


    1. The John Jay report clearly refutes the contention that "the problem does seem to be mainly homosexuality."
    2. It's disingenuous and incorrect to say the majority of victims were post-pubescent (again, as if that made the abuse any less reprehensible).
    3. Yes, the report says saying "pedophile priests" is inaccurate, but as academic research it's drawing a distinction the general public isn't going to: that the a clinical diagnosis of pedophilia is beyond the purview of the paper - yet still going on to say that "The behaviors are consistent with that which would be exhibited by an individual diagnosed with this disorder."

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

  15. #2725
    TOL Legend annabenedetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    If they can't respect or follow the teachings of the Church on homosexuality, how can we trust them with anything?
    I take no pleasure in saying this, but it seems to me that you need this all to be about homosexuality. You need a scapegoat because for any of it to be about the Church is unthinkable to you. I understand that. It's the underpinning of everything we've been taught about the Church, that it's the one true Church, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Without that belief, what do we have?

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

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  17. #2726
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    but it seems to me that you need this all to be about homosexuality.
    Why did all three popes, including Francis, say that homosexuals should not be ordained?
    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  19. #2727
    TOL Legend annabenedetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    Why did all three popes, including Francis, say that homosexuals should not be ordained?
    Do you think they're still being ordained?

    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

  20. #2728
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    Do you think they're still being ordained?
    Yes
    The bishops have been ignoring the pope
    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  22. #2729
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    AIDS
    A Disease
    affecting many priests. Most likely they are active homosexuals. They are dying of AIDS at a higher rate than normal. They didn't get it from the kids. We will never know the real numbers but the bishops will not deny that a significant number of priests and bishops are dying of AIDS. We can't ignore this. The Church has been corrupted by those who don't see any problem with homosexuality.
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    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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  24. #2730
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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    Do you think they're still being ordained?
    Do you think they should be excluded from being ordained?

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