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Thread: The Perversion of Libertarianism

  1. #76
    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
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    Back to the oxymoron term "Christian Libertarianism".

    Wikipedia has an article on "Christian Libertarianism".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_libertarianism

    I found this part to be an outright lie (the part I put in bold):

    Differences with Christian right

    As Jesus did not call upon the political and legal authorities to enforce piety or discourage sinful behavior, Christian libertarians do not believe in a political mandate to Christianize culture. Behavior considered sinful by the Church—but which does not violate the lives, liberty, or property of others—must be disciplined within the Church itself.


    According to "Christian Libertarian" doctrine, it appears that Jesus Christ didn't believe in the rule of law when it came to things like adultery, homosexuality, incest and (the topic no Libertarian on TOL seems to want to talk about) bestiality (He was obviously one of those "consensual moralists").

    I just don't understand why He didn't go to the Roman authorities and demand that those being incarcerated for those crimes be released.

    One TOL'er responded some time ago that Jesus was probably in fear of being persecuted by the Romans for saying something.

    Ummmmm...what, like being nailed to a cross?

    I have to ask where in Scripture is the Church authorized to do anything to it's sinful members other than banish them for their respected church? And how about those that don't attend church services, who is to punish them for immoral behaviors?
    I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative!

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  3. #77
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    An excellent article by a Christian lady entitled:

    No, we are not all libertarians

    March 30, 2013


    By Sylvia Thompson

    In response to an article posted on 3/19/2013, written by Jacob Perry for the Conservative Intelligence Briefing blog, I penned the following statement. Perry's article is titled "We're All Libertarians Now." I say resoundingly, "No, we are not."

    As a conservative Christian, I oppose libertarianism and conclude that it is impractical primarily because it is a godless ideology. As Mr. Perry indicated in his article, Libertarians hold that moral issues have no place in governing but should be left to the church.

    That is not, however, the position of the Founders of the United States. They based the Constitution upon Judeo-Christian principles (and this is historical fact). Without those principles, the Constitution is an unworkable tool, as some of the Founders so aptly acknowledged in their writings. In a similar vein, capitalism devoid of Judeo-Christian underpinnings is as unworkable as socialism. The Constitution was not written for a godless people.

    It is the godless quality of libertarianism that will not fly with most Americans. That's not to say that all who embrace libertarianism are themselves godless, but their ideology makes no connection to God. Traditional conservatism does make that connection. The difference between these two ideologies explains why Libertarians can embrace the homosexual agenda and other morally unacceptable behaviors. Individual liberty trumps all else; nobody or nothing can infringe upon it. Judeo-Christian conservatives cannot embrace such idealism. Biblical morality is the determiner of what is and is not acceptable. We know that the individual liberty of one person generally always infringes upon the individual liberty of someone else; therefore, the arbiter of human behavior must be outside the human realm.

    Read more: http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/sthompson/130330
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    Panhandling. According to Libertarians, this is a "victimless crime".



    Does anyone see a victim here? I see many.
    I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative!

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    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
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    Bump for any TOL Libertarians that want to defend Paleo-Libertarianism and/or attack me for my "liberalism".

    Paleolibertarianism is a variety of libertarianism developed by anarcho-capitalist theorists Murray Rothbard and Llewellyn Rockwell that combines conservative social philosophy and cultural values with a libertarian opposition to government intervention.

    i.e. Paleo Libertarians are allegedly against things like homosexuality, but they just don't want to do anything about it.
    I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative!

  6. #80
    Silver Member patrick jane's Avatar
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    Libertarianism is a free market economy based on Austrian economics and then minding your own business.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:13, 14 -

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    Quote Originally Posted by cellist View Post
    And I'll just say that I have already debated aCultureWarrior on this issue and post after post he would not seriously address my most salient points.

    Here are the points he has yet to answer:

    1) He has not answered whether he accepts the idea of self ownership, a central principle in liberty. As John Locke, the Christian philosopher said, "Every man has a property in his own person." aCultureWarrior says he has answered it but he confuses it with "free will". Free will is a completely different concept then self ownership. To make my point, I'm sure the "Great Leader" of North Korea believes his subjects have the "free will" or the choice to disobey him but we all know that the citizens of that country are treated no less than the "Great Leader's" property as he has sovereign control over them. Free will is not self ownership. BTW, when John Locke says "self ownership" he is not referring to one's rights as they pertain to God, but as they pertain to other people, especially governments.

    2) I put forward a philosophical argument that self ownership is axiomatic. Self ownership fits the bill well to be an axiom because one cannot argue against it without presupposing it. If aCultureWarrior argues against self ownership, for example, he is in essence affirming his ownership over his own mind (i.e. self ownership).

    3) I have asked him why certain sins should be illegal and others not. I have accused him of being arbitrary in singling out certain sins and ignoring others. His list is based on emotion rather than logic. He has not answered this point as well.

    4) I have pointed out that governments set a dangerous precedent in denying self ownership to its citizens, even in the conservative attempt to make homosexual activity illegal, and has far reaching implications. Once a precedent is set (and it has already been set by the left and the right)for the state to be the "moral guide" for citizens by using coercion (sounds scary, doesn't it?), the left or any other non-Christian group can justify forcing people, including Christians, to conform to their own standards of right and wrong. Consider how the left keeps trying to force Christians to provide money for abortions.

    5) I also argued that as Christians we live in two kingdoms; the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of man. I pointed out that aCulteralWarrior is confusing the two - theocratic tendencies exist in his thinking. We live, as Christians, in both kingdoms. We have rights in the Kingdom of man that we don't have in the Kingdom of God, self ownership being one of them.

    6) Lastly, I argued that sCulteralWarrior is attempting to transform culture from a position of human power, rather than through a position of human weakness. This stems from his confusion of the two Kingdoms. He prefers to put his trust in the powers of a civil government than the power of the Gospel, which Paul calls the Power of God unto salvation. It is through the "foolishness" of preaching the the culture is transformed, not through the coercive powers of the state. He would rather throw the sinner into prison with handcuffs and guns than lead him to church where he can hear the message of Christ. He has the idea that if we just get the right people in office, vote the right way, we can have our "righteous government" that will "force" America to be righteous. Funny how Christ and the apostles never thought of that!

    So I just put a fair amount of time into writing this post and I will only debate this issue if people actually put forward well thought out answers on the subject. Otherwise I am just going to pass on this.
    Interesting and adroit synopsis cellist; I look forward to your musings.
    That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.
    Philippians 2:15

  9. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Libertarianism is a free market economy based on Austrian economics and then minding your own business.
    As dumb as you play here on TOL, I know that you're well versed in politics and especially Libertarian politics (you're having the time of your life fooling these good people here on TOL aren't you?).

    Tell us about Austrian economics and when it comes to social policies what "minding your own business" entails.
    I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative!

  10. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightSon View Post
    Interesting and adroit synopsis cellist; I look forward to your musings.
    If cellist should decide to return to the thread, he can "muse" this post:

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4645756
    I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative!

  11. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Panhandling. According to Libertarians, this is a "victimless crime".



    Does anyone see a victim here? I see many.

    No victim, if anybody gives then they wanted to, noboday has to. Victimless
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:13, 14 -

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    No victim, if anybody gives then they wanted to, noboday has to. Victimless
    So a person that destroys his own life isn't a victim to his poor decisions?
    I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative!

  13. #86
    Silver Member patrick jane's Avatar
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    Christian libertarians believe these principles are supported by the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, which are recorded in the Bible, and His criticism of the laws (Halakha) observed by the Pharisees. For example, in Jesus' day, it was prohibited to heal someone on the Sabbath, because this was considered doing actual work on the mandated day ofrest and worship. He opposed the Pharisees due to their self-righteous, man-made regulations added to God's law, which they obeyed outwardly, but with the wrong inward motivation. Also, most Christians believe the ceremonial and civic laws found in the Old Testament have been superseded by the New Covenant. For these reasons, Christian libertarians may consider Jesus as the greatest libertarian in history.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:13, 14 -

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Christian libertarians believe these principles are supported by the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, which are recorded in the Bible, and His criticism of the laws (Halakha) observed by the Pharisees. For example, in Jesus' day, it was prohibited to heal someone on the Sabbath, because this was considered doing actual work on the mandated day ofrest and worship.
    He opposed the Pharisees due to their self-righteous, man-made regulations added to God's law, which they obeyed outwardly, but with the wrong inward motivation. Also, most Christians believe the ceremonial and civic laws found in the Old Testament have been superseded by the New Covenant. For these reasons, Christian libertarians may consider Jesus as the greatest libertarian in history.
    Jesus rescinded Jewish ceremonial laws (which deals with observing the Sabbath), but never renounced God's universal moral code (which deals with amongst other things sexual sins).

    P.S. I over estimated your intelligence.
    I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Panhandling. According to Libertarians, this is a "victimless crime".



    Does anyone see a victim here? I see many.
    Actually the businesses and residents are victims, so is the kid. He doesn't look old enough to drink and he's asking for an illegal substance. He's not really hurting anyone and the police should move him along shortly, all it takes is one complaint; one phone call and he's out of business.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:13, 14 -

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Actually the businesses and residents are victims, so is the kid. He doesn't look old enough to drink and he's asking for an illegal substance. He's not really hurting anyone and the police should move him along shortly, all it takes is one complaint; one phone call and he's out of business.
    You just contradicted yourself.

    Thanks for stopping by.
    I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    You just contradicted yourself.

    Thanks for stopping by.
    What victims do you see, you never said.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:13, 14 -

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