User Tag List

Page 1 of 10 1234 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 148

Thread: The Perversion of Libertarianism

  1. #1
    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    14,072
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 1,151 Times in 992 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    599217

    The Perversion of Libertarianism

    It's rare that people who embrace Libertarian ideology show their faces on a Christian website, because the two ideologies inherently conflict with one another. Most Libertarians use words like "freedom" and "liberty" to describe their ideology (which is backed by a political movement), but fail to realize that in the context that they're using those words really means that individuals and society at large are being enslaved to sin.

    So as to not to continue to derail this thread,
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4643521


    I'm bringing the conversation here and inviting other Libertarians to join in on the conversation.

    As you can see from the above link, when you hard press a Libertarian to face up to the realities of their godless doctrine, they'll admit that things like homosexuality, incest and recreational drug use (not just marijuana, but crack cocaine and heroin as well) should be legalized.

    Unless a Libertarian can come forward and give an explanation as to what Libertarian doctrine entails, then the preamble to the Libertarian Party Platform will be used to discuss (and expose) what Libertarian doctrine really is.

    "As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

    We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

    Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.
    "
    http://www.lp.org/platform


    For those of you that will be following this thread and have an ounce of decency in your body (provided TOL's Libertarians want to come forward and expose their godless doctrine), I'd advise you to go out and buy some delousing powder, as showering numerous times after reading one of their posts just isn't enough to get the feeling of creepy-crawly pests off of your body.
    Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
    Galatians 4:16

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to aCultureWarrior For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016)

  3. #2
    Get used to it. TomO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Between the Clowns and the Jokers
    Posts
    2,507
    Thanks
    49
    Thanked 323 Times in 237 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    258854
    Oh look....ACW has started a thread and would like others to join him.

    Baby-Playing-in-Dirty-Mud.jpg
    Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
    ~Leonard Cohen



    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ~Dalai Lama XIV

  4. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to TomO For Your Post:

    Ktoyou (March 17th, 2016),Mark M (March 7th, 2016),Newman (March 7th, 2016),ok doser (March 7th, 2016),WizardofOz (April 21st, 2017)

  5. #3

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    Newman (March 7th, 2016),TomO (March 7th, 2016)

  7. #4
    Over 2500 post club
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    2,535
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 152 Times in 121 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    104166
    The government cannot free you from sin, only Jesus can.

    What we want is a culture where we are free to witness and worship as we so chose... right now, neither the democrats or republicans support that kind of culture... they both want to outlaw certain types of thought that are of no harm except to the individual.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to HisServant For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016)

  9. #5
    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    14,072
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 1,151 Times in 992 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    599217
    Quote Originally Posted by HisServant View Post
    The government cannot free you from sin, only Jesus can.
    So true, but what about those who don't wish to be free? Should we abolish government (which was ordained by God to rule righteously) and let anarchy rule? Or perhaps we should allow government to continue to be run by secular humanists who want to keep things like abortion, homosexuality and pornography legal?

    What we want is a culture where we are free to witness and worship as we so chose... right now, neither the democrats or republicans support that kind of culture... they both want to outlaw certain types of thought that are of no harm except to the individual.
    This thread isn't about "thoughts", it's about (Libertarian) ideology turned into action. But since you brought up the word "thoughts", how would government outlaw something that an individual is "thinking"?
    Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
    Galatians 4:16

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to aCultureWarrior For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016)

  11. #6
    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    14,072
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 1,151 Times in 992 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    599217
    Quote Originally Posted by TomO View Post
    Oh look....ACW has started a thread and would like others to join him.

    Baby-Playing-in-Dirty-Mud.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    Don't be shy boyz, I know that you both have very strong Libertarian leanings. Join in the thread and make me look like the fool that you think I am.
    Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
    Galatians 4:16

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to aCultureWarrior For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016)

  13. #7
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    17,616
    Thanks
    997
    Thanked 3,981 Times in 3,023 Posts

    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147682
    you're doing fine all by yourself

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016),WizardofOz (April 21st, 2017)

  15. #8
    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    14,072
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 1,151 Times in 992 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    599217
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    you're doing fine all by yourself
    Then I assume you'll be trolling elsewhere, or can I expect further disruption from someone who is too ashamed of godless Libertarian doctrine to admit that he is one?
    Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
    Galatians 4:16

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to aCultureWarrior For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016)

  17. #9
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    17,616
    Thanks
    997
    Thanked 3,981 Times in 3,023 Posts

    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147682
    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Then I assume you'll be trolling elsewhere...
    i'll be trolling here, i'll be trolling there, i'll be trolling everywhere!




    Quote Originally Posted by acw
    , or can I expect further disruption
    seems likely!

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016)

  19. #10
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    17,616
    Thanks
    997
    Thanked 3,981 Times in 3,023 Posts

    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147682

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016)

  21. #11
    Over 2500 post club
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    2,535
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 152 Times in 121 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    104166
    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    So true, but what about those who don't wish to be free? Should we abolish government (which was ordained by God to rule righteously) and let anarchy rule? Or perhaps we should allow government to continue to be run by secular humanists who want to keep things like abortion, homosexuality and pornography legal?
    So what if it is legal? And yes, I want it to be run by secularists, otherwise it will eventually be run by Mormons, or SDA's or Baptists and we will be forced to conform to their doctrines.


    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    This thread isn't about "thoughts", it's about (Libertarian) ideology turned into action. But since you brought up the word "thoughts", how would government outlaw something that an individual is "thinking"?
    I don't know, but that is the end result of the road you are taking.

    Libertarianism is the what Christ died for.. to give us individual liberty..

    Why do you have so little faith in him... so much so that you feel obliged to usurp his authority?

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to HisServant For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016)

  23. #12
    Get used to it. TomO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Between the Clowns and the Jokers
    Posts
    2,507
    Thanks
    49
    Thanked 323 Times in 237 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    258854
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    i'll be trolling here, i'll be trolling there, i'll be trolling everywhere! banana:
    Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
    ~Leonard Cohen



    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ~Dalai Lama XIV

  24. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TomO For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016),User Name (March 9th, 2016)

  25. #13
    Rookie cellist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    27
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    3763

    Don't waste your time

    And I'll just say that I have already debated aCultureWarrior on this issue and post after post he would not seriously address my most salient points.

    Here are the points he has yet to answer:

    1) He has not answered whether he accepts the idea of self ownership, a central principle in liberty. As John Locke, the Christian philosopher said, "Every man has a property in his own person." aCultureWarrior says he has answered it but he confuses it with "free will". Free will is a completely different concept then self ownership. To make my point, I'm sure the "Great Leader" of North Korea believes his subjects have the "free will" or the choice to disobey him but we all know that the citizens of that country are treated no less than the "Great Leader's" property as he has sovereign control over them. Free will is not self ownership. BTW, when John Locke says "self ownership" he is not referring to one's rights as they pertain to God, but as they pertain to other people, especially governments.

    2) I put forward a philosophical argument that self ownership is axiomatic. Self ownership fits the bill well to be an axiom because one cannot argue against it without presupposing it. If aCultureWarrior argues against self ownership, for example, he is in essence affirming his ownership over his own mind (i.e. self ownership).

    3) I have asked him why certain sins should be illegal and others not. I have accused him of being arbitrary in singling out certain sins and ignoring others. His list is based on emotion rather than logic. He has not answered this point as well.

    4) I have pointed out that governments set a dangerous precedent in denying self ownership to its citizens, even in the conservative attempt to make homosexual activity illegal, and has far reaching implications. Once a precedent is set (and it has already been set by the left and the right)for the state to be the "moral guide" for citizens by using coercion (sounds scary, doesn't it?), the left or any other non-Christian group can justify forcing people, including Christians, to conform to their own standards of right and wrong. Consider how the left keeps trying to force Christians to provide money for abortions.

    5) I also argued that as Christians we live in two kingdoms; the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of man. I pointed out that aCulteralWarrior is confusing the two - theocratic tendencies exist in his thinking. We live, as Christians, in both kingdoms. We have rights in the Kingdom of man that we don't have in the Kingdom of God, self ownership being one of them.

    6) Lastly, I argued that sCulteralWarrior is attempting to transform culture from a position of human power, rather than through a position of human weakness. This stems from his confusion of the two Kingdoms. He prefers to put his trust in the powers of a civil government than the power of the Gospel, which Paul calls the Power of God unto salvation. It is through the "foolishness" of preaching the the culture is transformed, not through the coercive powers of the state. He would rather throw the sinner into prison with handcuffs and guns than lead him to church where he can hear the message of Christ. He has the idea that if we just get the right people in office, vote the right way, we can have our "righteous government" that will "force" America to be righteous. Funny how Christ and the apostles never thought of that!

    So I just put a fair amount of time into writing this post and I will only debate this issue if people actually put forward well thought out answers on the subject. Otherwise I am just going to pass on this.
    For I am not ashamed of the Gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith...(Rom 1:16)

  26. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to cellist For Your Post:

    Mark M (March 9th, 2016),Right Divider (April 21st, 2017),WizardofOz (March 8th, 2016)

  27. #14
    Get used to it. TomO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Between the Clowns and the Jokers
    Posts
    2,507
    Thanks
    49
    Thanked 323 Times in 237 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    258854
    Quote Originally Posted by cellist View Post
    And I'll just say that I have already debated aCultureWarrior on this issue and post after post he would not seriously address my most salient points.
    Shocked!....Yes, shocked I am!
    Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
    ~Leonard Cohen



    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ~Dalai Lama XIV

  28. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TomO For Your Post:

    Newman (March 7th, 2016),WizardofOz (March 8th, 2016)

  29. #15
    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    14,072
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 1,151 Times in 992 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    599217
    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

    So true, but what about those who don't wish to be free? Should we abolish government (which was ordained by God to rule righteously) and let anarchy rule? Or perhaps we should allow government to continue to be run by secular humanists who want to keep things like abortion, homosexuality and pornography legal?

    So what if it is legal? And yes, I want it to be run by secularists,
    So you're perfectly fine with 58 million unborn babies being murdered in the womb in a 43 year span? You're perfectly fine with young children being indoctrinated to the ways of perversion via the homosexual agenda?
    You're perfectly fine with families being destroyed by pornography and recreational drug use?

    I don't know if you worship the same God as I do, but His 2nd greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as you'd love yourself. How can you love your neighbor if you're encouraging immoral behavior through immoral laws?

    otherwise it will eventually be run by Mormons, or SDA's or Baptists and we will be forced to conform to their doctrines.
    The thought of someone being the President of the United States who doesn't go to my church is horrifying (sarcasm). I guess you're not overly concerned with the guy who has held the Office for the past 8 years and spent 20 years before that in a "Black Liberation Theology" church?



    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

    This thread isn't about "thoughts", it's about (Libertarian) ideology turned into action. But since you brought up the word "thoughts", how would government outlaw something that an individual is "thinking"?

    I don't know, but that is the end result of the road you are taking.
    So legislating righteous (moral) laws somehow involves punishing people for what they are thinking?

    Libertarianism is the what Christ died for.. to give us individual liberty..
    Liberty from sin, not to sin, and that's the role of a righteous civil government: to lead people away from sinful behavior.

    Why do you have so little faith in him... so much so that you feel obliged to usurp his authority?
    Since God ordained civil government as one of three institutions for the governance of man (the family and Church being the other two), I don't understand why Christians such as yourself don't acknowledge the other institutions that God ordained.

    Anyway, thanks for stopping by, this thread was created for those who wish to defend the godlessness of the current Libertarian movement, not the "My church is better than your church!" crowd.
    Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
    Galatians 4:16

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us