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View Poll Results: Is the Trinity biblical and taught in the Bible

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  • Yes

    68 61.26%
  • No

    40 36.04%
  • Not sure

    3 2.70%
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Thread: The Trinity

  1. #61
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    With all respect, elder brother, I got to ask you something here.

    I don't know exactly what gospel G.O. believed but let's assume for argument's sake that it's the Gospel of the grace of God, the power of God unto salvation. That would mean G.O. very much IS saved, despite a head full of bad doctrinal wiring.

    But just lately, on another thread, you said there's no way to know David Bowie is NOT with the Lord, even though (afaik) he never once made any indication of having believed, or even heard, the saving Gospel.

    So which is it? Bad doctrine proves damnation, but a profession-less life of debauchery does not?

    This is asked with love and desire for clarity in all things. If I've misunderstood you, I apologize and ask your forgiveness.
    Does anybody know that David Bowie did NOT repent and also never believed the saving gospel ? How do we know what he believed privately ? never mind I figured out what afaik means. You don't know.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Yes, I remember now that you are anti Trinity also. I guess all the anti Trins end up on TOL because TOL lets you post here. All other Christian forums will ban you. Fortunately you haven't convinced any true believers of your false teachings.
    http://forum.bible-discussion.com/forum.php

  3. #63
    TOL Legend Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Are you trying to be tricky there?

    Oh, by the way...
    EXCELLENT

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  5. #64
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Have you ever read the entire Bible, cover to cover?
    Many times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    You ought to be rejected if you deny the truth of the Trinity and the Deity of Christ.
    It is obvious that you err because you don't know the scriptures nor the power of God.
    Last edited by genuineoriginal; January 14th, 2016 at 08:12 AM.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  6. #65
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Are you trying to be tricky there?
    Not at all.

    The scripture does not teach that anyone needs to believe God is a Trinity in order to be saved, nor does the scripture teach that God is a Trinity.

    It took 300 years after Crist was crucified for man to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity.
    The doctrine of the Trinity has been debated for 1700 years simply because it is not taught by scripture.
    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Oh, by the way...
    _____
    History of Trinitarian Doctrines

    This supplementary document discusses the history of Trinity theories. Although early Christian theologians speculated in many ways on the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one clearly and fully asserted the doctrine of the Trinity as explained at the top of the main entry until around the end of the so-called Arian Controversy. (See 3.2 below and section 3.1 of the supplementary document on unitarianism.) Nonetheless, proponents of such theories always claim them to be in some sense founded on, or at least illustrated by, biblical texts.
    . . .
    those developing the doctrine saw themselves as trying to build a systematic Christian theology on the Bible while remaining faithful to earlier post-biblical tradition. Many also had the aim of showing Christianity to be consistent with the best of Greek philosophy. But even if the doctrine had a non-Christian origin, it would would not follow that it is false or unjustified; it could be, that through Philo (or whomever), God revealed the doctrine to the Christian church. Still, it is contested issue whether or not the doctrine can be deduced or otherwise inferred from the Christian Bible, so we must turn to it.
    . . .
    No trinitarian doctrine is explicitly taught in the Old Testament. Sophisticated trinitarians grant this, holding that the doctrine was revealed by God only later, in New Testament times (c.50–c.100) and/or in the Patristic era (c. 100–800). They usually also add, though, that with hindsight, we can see that a number of texts either portray or forshadow the co-working of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    . . .
    The New Testament contains no explicit trinitarian doctrine. However, many Christian theologians, apologists, and philosophers hold that the doctrine can be inferred from what the New Testament does teach about God. But how may it be inferred? Is the inference deductive, or is it an inference to the best explanation? And is it based on what is implicitly taught there, or on what is merely assumed there? Many Christian theologians and apologists seem to hold it is a deductive inference.
    . . .
    _____
    Learn to read what is written.

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    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  7. #66
    This is definitely Lower Wacker Drive. musterion's Avatar
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    The scripture does not teach that anyone needs to believe God is a Trinity in order to be saved, nor does the scripture teach that God is a Trinity.
    Then refute the logic demonstrated in the graphic. If its faulty, you should be able to demonstrate it easily.

    Many Christian theologians and apologists seem to hold it is a deductive inference.
    I think it's more inductive but the reasoning is there, as the graphic shows.

    Cut and paste? Sigh. I wanted YOUR response on the challenge. May we see it?
    Not a single cluster of living fruit was, or ever will be, harvested from the tree of legality. Law can only produce “dead works,” from which we need to have conscience purged just as much as from “wicked works.”

    C. H. Mackintosh


  8. #67
    This is definitely Lower Wacker Drive. musterion's Avatar
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    The difference between the two kinds of arguments does not lie solely in the words used; it comes from the relationship the author or expositor of the argument takes there to be between the premises and the conclusion. If the author of the argument believes that the truth of the premises definitely establishes the truth of the conclusion (due to definition, logical entailment, logical structure, or mathematical necessity), then the argument is deductive. If the author of the argument does not think that the truth of the premises definitely establishes the truth of the conclusion, but nonetheless believes that their truth provides good reason to believe the conclusion true, then the argument is inductive.
    Yeah, inductive I think, because as you correctly point out, there is no single verse that says God is a trinity. However, the scriptural evidence taken in total points in that direction.

    You're welcome to disprove it if you like.
    Not a single cluster of living fruit was, or ever will be, harvested from the tree of legality. Law can only produce “dead works,” from which we need to have conscience purged just as much as from “wicked works.”

    C. H. Mackintosh


  9. #68
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Then refute the logic demonstrated in the graphic. If its faulty, you should be able to demonstrate it easily.

    I think it's more inductive but the reasoning is there, as the graphic shows.

    Cut and paste? Sigh. I wanted YOUR response on the challenge. May we see it?
    What is the purpose of your challenge?

    Is it to show that the scriptures teach the doctrine of the Trinity?

    If so, it completely failed, since it proved that the Trinity doctrine comes from deductive reasoning.

    Is it to show that some verses of the Bible combined with logic can be used to get people to agree with the doctrine of the Trinity?

    If so, then it also failed, since my position on the matter is not whether I personally believe or disbelieve the doctrine, merely whether the doctrine is taught by scripture (it is not) and whether it is necessary to believe the Trinity doctrine in order to be saved (it is not).

    What do you think you gain by belief in the Trinity doctrine?
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  10. #69
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Yeah, inductive I think, because as you correctly point out, there is no single verse that says God is a trinity. However, the scriptural evidence taken in total points in that direction.

    You're welcome to disprove it if you like.
    I would disagree with you about whether scriptural evidence taken in total points to the Trinity doctrine.

    The overwhelming majority of scripture taken at face value supports a Unitarian view of God the Father being the only true god who sent His Son to die for our sins.

    Support for the Trinity doctrine comes almost exclusively from about three dozen passage in scripture and from deductive reasoning.

    Inductive reasoning is probably what started the Binity doctrine when some Christians found it impossible to believe that Jesus could do the things He does without being God Himself.

    Adding the Holy Spirit to the Binity doctrine to make it a Trinity doctrine comes entirely from deductive reasoning.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  11. #70
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Inductive reasoning is probably what started the Binity doctrine when some Christians found it impossible to believe that Jesus could do the things He does without being God Himself.
    If one accepts Paul's assertion in Colossians 1:16 then there is no doubt Christ was the Creator identified in Genesis 2:4.

  12. #71
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Adding the Holy Spirit to the Binity doctrine to make it a Trinity doctrine comes entirely from deductive reasoning.
    NT scripture clearly explains the holy spirit as a power, much like electricity or wind or some other physical power that is a causative motivation for some action.

    Paul says, "Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 1:6 NKJV)

    God gives us power through his spirit, a spirit of power and of love and of a sound mind.

  13. #72
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psalmist View Post
    Matthew 28:18-20
    18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

    From what I read, it is and taught by Jesus.
    From what I read, Jesus was given all authority by someone else who already had all authority.

    All authority has been given to Me
    Is that the way you read the highlighted part, too?
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  14. #73
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    If one accepts Paul's assertion in Colossians 1:16 then there is no doubt Christ was the Creator identified in Genesis 2:4.

    Colossians 1:12-17
    12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


    An argument can be successfully made that everything I highlighted in YELLOW refers to the Father and everything highlighted in GREEN refers to the Son.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  15. #74
    TOL Legend Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    G.O. you just can't/won't see the truth of the Trinity in Scripture. You're either
    blind to truth, not a true believer, or just a guy caught up in false doctrine.
    Which is it?

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  17. #75
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    An argument can be successfully made that everything I highlighted in YELLOW refers to the Father and everything highlighted in GREEN refers to the Son.
    Ok, highlight this in yellow or purple or whatever color you want.

    He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
    (John 1:3 NKJV)

    So what was made without him? Were the heavens and earth made without him?

    ...and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.
    (Colossians 3:10 NKJV)

    Were humans made without him?

    ...has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds. (Hebrews 1:2 NKJV)

    Were the worlds made without him?

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