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Thread: The Trinity

  1. #24886
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Why read your unitarianism into the verse, so as to imagine that there is a distinction?
    Because that is the way the verse is.

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    Over 3000 post club Apple7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.

    The thirteen introductory greetings of Paul’s letters all have one thing in common, and that is that they are all Triune in nature.

    The typical into salutation reads as thus…

    χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη απο θεου πατρος ημων και κυριου ιησου χριστου

    Charis hymin kai eirēnē apo Theou Patros hēmōn kai Kyriou Iēsou Christou

    Grace to you, and Peace, from God our Father and Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 1.3


    Observe that the nominative subject in this passage is both ‘Grace and Peace’, each, of which, is an epithet for The Holy Spirit; and that God The Father and The Lord Jesus Christ are both in the genitive, which means that both The Father & The Son are in direct possession of The Holy Spirit, and is given from each, simultaneously.

    The Father & The Son are NOT The Holy Spirit, rather, each provides the Holy Spirit.

    Thus, the intro, to each letter, is from The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

    The Trinity.




    Compare to the similar exit valediction, as thus…


    η χαρις του κυριου ιησου μεθ υμων

    hē charis tou Kyriou Iēsou meth'hymōn

    The Grace of The Lord Jesus be with you. 1 Cor 16.23


    Again, at the end of Paul’s letter, The Grace (The Holy Spirit) is in the nominative, and The Lord Jesus is in the Genitive, which means that Jesus is in direct possession of The Holy Spirit.

    Jesus is NOT The Holy Spirit, rather, Jesus provides the Holy Spirit.

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  4. #24888
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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Is not what is happening here...that you wish to insert another person here or a pink bunny is arguing from silence...and because a pink bunny is not mentioned...there is profound silence on pink bunnies greeting ever...

    That there is a Holy Spirit mentioned is not silent...that it is NOT included as a person in greetings is not silent...either the Holy Spirit did not wish to be included in greetings...or it was forgotten/ignored/kicked against...or it did not exist as a person of note to be included in greetings...I go with the latter...
    Look, moron, when you make an iffirmative case for a proposition based on what is NOT said, which was very clearly and explicitly done in the post I was responding to, it is, BY DEFINITION, an argument from silence. The post even started by saying "not that it proves anything"! Well, the reason it doesn't prove anything is because it's an argument from silence!

    Not that you'd even care! You're so stupid that you compound the error by doing it again and acting like anyone who knows how to think clearly is going to be convinced!

    No pink bunnies! Really?! That's your idea of a sound argument?

    There's no mention of grey elephants or blue birds either. Is it your intention to argue against the existence of African Elephants and Blue Jays based on Paul's failure to mention them at the end of his letters? He didn't mention his mother either. Was Paul born without a mother? Hats! Hats were never mentioned by Paul at all! Hats must be a figment of our collective imagination!

    This same sort of stupidity is the basis for all kinds of mindlessly worthless Christian doctrines. The Church of Christ sings acapela because there is no mention of musical instumentation during a New Testament worship service, just to name one example.

    How is it even possible to be this stupid?!!!

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

    Here we have God the Father speaking from Heaven, The Holy Spirit (Clefty's non-existent "pink bunny") and Jesus in the same passage. One in heaven, One decending from Heaven, and One on the Earth.

    The book of John teaches us that Jesus is the Creator (John 1) and that He and the Father are One (John 10:30 & 17:11-21)
    In Luke we are shown the the Holy Spirit is God Himself, the Father of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:35) and in Romans we find that the Holy Spirt raised Christ from the dead (Romans 8:11)

    If A=B and B=C then A=C

    This is not difficult to understand!

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  8. #24890
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Look, moron,
    ouch...lol

    when you make an iffirmative case for a proposition based on what is NOT said, which was very clearly and explicitly done in the post I was responding to, it is, BY DEFINITION, an argument from silence.
    yup

    The post even started by saying "not that it proves anything"! Well, the reason it doesn't prove anything is because it's an argument from silence!
    actually that post’s argument until this time and in this thread was silent until that post...but the posts argument has been argued so it in and of itself is not silent just not argued here and now

    Not that you'd even care! You're so stupid that you compound the error by doing it again and acting like anyone who knows how to think clearly is going to be convinced!
    stupid maybe to think you cared...

    No pink bunnies! Really?! That's your idea of a sound argument?
    well if pink bunnies had greeted then Paul was mean to leave them out...especially if pink bunnies were known to greet...

    There's no mention of grey elephants or blue birds either. Is it your intention to argue against the existence of African Elephants and Blue Jays based on Paul's failure to mention them at the end of his letters?
    nope...but if they had greeted and were known to greet and Paul left them out then it would be mean and not an argument of silence that these animals were left out...their greeting

    He didn't mention his mother either. Was Paul born without a mother?
    it is commonly understood Paul was a man and men are born of mothers...did his mother greet? If yes he was rude...if no perhaps she didn’t greet...she does exist though...but not as an African elephant...that she was an African elephant NOW THAT would be a argument of silence...not that Paul had a mother or not...or if she greeted...

    That she greeted would be from silence though...

    Hats! Hats were never mentioned by Paul at all! Hats must be a figment of our collective imagination!
    Paul actually does mention not to cover heads (men) or to cover heads (women)...but jews cover heads despite what Paul said...so hats are argued on...

    but that hats greeted and Paul left it out NOW THAT would be an argument from silence

    This same sort of stupidity is the basis for all kinds of mindlessly worthless Christian doctrines. The Church of Christ sings acapela because there is no mention of musical instumentation during a New Testament worship service, just to name one example.
    yes the laser lighted rock shows which attempt to pass off as worship power hours are much more inline with what scripture speaks on...

    How is it even possible to be this stupid?!!!
    well you know...about since Eve deceived herself and Israel itself with false worship...having added things the Word never spoke...but from silence

  9. #24891
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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    ouch...lol

    yup

    actually that post’s argument until this time and in this thread was silent until that post...but the posts argument has been argued so it in and of itself is not silent just not argued here and now

    stupid maybe to think you cared...

    well if pink bunnies had greeted then Paul was mean to leave them out...especially if pink bunnies were known to greet...

    nope...but if they had greeted and were known to greet and Paul left them out then it would be mean and not an argument of silence that these animals were left out...their greeting

    it is commonly understood Paul was a man and men are born of mothers...did his mother greet? If yes he was rude...if no perhaps she didn’t greet...she does exist though...but not as an African elephant...that she was an African elephant NOW THAT would be a argument of silence...not that Paul had a mother or not...or if she greeted...

    That she greeted would be from silence though...

    Paul actually does mention not to cover heads (men) or to cover heads (women)...but jews cover heads despite what Paul said...so hats are argued on...

    but that hats greeted and Paul left it out NOW THAT would be an argument from silence

    yes the laser lighted rock shows which attempt to pass off as worship power hours are much more inline with what scripture speaks on...

    well you know...about since Eve deceived herself and Israel itself with false worship...having added things the Word never spoke...but from silence
    You are simply stupid. That's just all there is to it.

    What in the world are you even doing here?

    Don't answer that, I won't read it.

    Now that I have a good idea again of why you're on my ignore list, I couldn't care less what other stupid thing you're going to say.



    This website is truly becoming an almost pure waste of my time. It's nothing but a gigantic stupidity parade with a small hand full of normal people thrown into the mix here and there. No one here is interested in learning anything or being convinced of anything or even attempting to convince anyone else for that matter. It's just bald assertions being mindlessly parroted and repeated ad nauseam. The vast majority literally would not know how to form a rational thought in their head if their lives depended on it and the one's here who can mostly agree with me already.

    Perhaps the question I should ask is what am I even doing here?

    I don't have a good answer except that it feels like the clap trap that passes for Christian doctrine around here from those like Clefty needs to be resisted, refuted, or otherwise defeated. The cost/benefit ratio is not really there for me any more.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Over 500 post club 7djengo7's Avatar
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    I asked you:

    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    What do you mean by your phrase, "False God"?
    To whom, or to what, would you apply your phrase, "False God", and why would you so apply it?
    You replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Anything that people claim is God, other than Christ's God.... which is "the ONLY true God".
    Do Trinitarians claim that Jesus, the Son of God, is God? Yes or No?
    Is Jesus, Who is the Son of God, God? Yes or No?
    Is Jesus a FALSE GOD? Yes or No?

    Have fun stonewalling against these questions!

    Do not think that I will forget to keep reminding you, and everybody else, of these questions, so long as you refuse to answer them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Y

    Perhaps the question I should ask is what am I even doing here?

    I don't have a good answer except that it feels like the clap trap that passes for Christian doctrine around here from those like Clefty needs to be resisted, refuted, or otherwise defeated. The cost/benefit ratio is not really there for me any more.
    You are here, Clete, for those of us who count on you for the boldness to speak the truth to those who need to be resisted, refuted, and DEFEATED.

    You said, yourself, that there is an ebb and flow here. Help us to open the drain pipe and run these fools off. The benefit for me, personally, is huge.


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  15. #24894
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You are here, Clete, for those of us who count on you for the boldness to speak the truth to those who need to be resisted, refuted, and DEFEATED.

    You said, yourself, that there is an ebb and flow here. Help us to open the drain pipe and run these fools off. The benefit for me, personally, is huge.

    I'm not going anywhere.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  17. #24895
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Do Trinitarians claim that Jesus, the Son of God, is God? Yes or No?
    YES! Absolutely! Anyone who denies it, isn't Christian and isn't saved.

    Is Jesus, Who is the Son of God, God? Yes or No?
    Umm, asked and answered.

    In case you missed it....

    YES! Absolutely! Anyone who denies it, isn't Christian and isn't saved.

    Is Jesus a FALSE GOD? Yes or No?
    Not at all! He is the Creator of all things.

    Have fun stonewalling against these questions!
    Who have you ever come across who would stonewall such questions? Why would anyone who claims to be a Christian have the slightest hesitation to not only answer them but to do so boldly?

    Do not think that I will forget to keep reminding you, and everybody else, of these questions, so long as you refuse to answer them.
    The only reason anyone would refuse to answer such questions is because they're just being dumb or else the person asking them is an idiot who is trying spring some sort of stupid trap on them. I don't know which it the case here because I've not been reading your exchange.

    Regardless,...

    Jesus Christ is not only the God who saved me but the one Who created all things. He is the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, the King of kings and the Lord of of lords. He is the God who has always lived, who laid down His life for my sake, was dead and Who rose to life by His own power, never to die again. He is the only God that exists - period.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    YES! Absolutely! Anyone who denies it, isn't Christian and isn't saved.


    Umm, asked and answered.

    In case you missed it....

    YES! Absolutely! Anyone who denies it, isn't Christian and isn't saved.


    Not at all! He is the Creator of all things.


    Who have you ever come across who would stonewall such questions? Why would anyone who claims to be a Christian have the slightest hesitation to not only answer them but to do so boldly?


    The only reason anyone would refuse to answer such questions is because they're just being dumb or else the person asking them is an idiot who is trying spring some sort of stupid trap on them. I don't know which it the case here because I've not been reading your exchange.

    Regardless,...

    Jesus Christ is not only the God who saved me but the one Who created all things. He is the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, the King of kings and the Lord of of lords. He is the God who has always lived, who laid down His life for my sake, was dead and Who rose to life by His own power, never to die again. He is the only God that exists - period.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Dartman is, as far as I can tell, a Jehovah's Witness.

    7djengo7 is a trinitarian.

    That should provide enough context.

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  21. #24897
    Over 500 post club 7djengo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    YES! Absolutely! Anyone who denies it, isn't Christian and isn't saved.


    Umm, asked and answered.

    In case you missed it....

    YES! Absolutely! Anyone who denies it, isn't Christian and isn't saved.


    Not at all! He is the Creator of all things.


    Who have you ever come across who would stonewall such questions? Why would anyone who claims to be a Christian have the slightest hesitation to not only answer them but to do so boldly?


    The only reason anyone would refuse to answer such questions is because they're just being dumb or else the person asking them is an idiot who is trying spring some sort of stupid trap on them. I don't know which it the case here because I've not been reading your exchange.

    Regardless,...

    Jesus Christ is not only the God who saved me but the one Who created all things. He is the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, the King of kings and the Lord of of lords. He is the God who has always lived, who laid down His life for my sake, was dead and Who rose to life by His own power, never to die again. He is the only God that exists - period.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    You misunderstood my post, Brother. I'm a Trinitarian. Of course Trinitarians believe and proclaim that Jesus, the Son of God, is God! Of course Jesus, the Son of God, is God!

    Perhaps you should have been reading my exchange, prior to commenting the way you just did. No harm done, though. If you backtrack a wee bit, and look into it, and then reread my questions to Dartman, then, as one who knows (against the falsehoods of the heretics) that Jesus Christ is, in fact, God, you may be pleasantly surprised at the results of the exercise.

    Observe that the Christ-hater, Dartman, the anti-Trinitarian to whom I posed those questions, must needs embarrass himself answering them. One thing many Christ-haters are loath to do is to publicly claim, in the presence of Christians (that is to say, Trinitarians), that Jesus is a FALSE GOD.

    • Dartman has already stated that Jesus is NOT God.
    • Dartman has already stated that anyone that is claimed to be God, but is NOT God, is a FALSE GOD.
    • Dartman has already contradicted himself by stating that Jesus is NOT a FALSE GOD.


    Logic, which is on the side of Ho Logos--Jesus, God the Son--is utterly despised by Christ-haters like Dartman. Observe this syllogism:

    Major Premise: Every person that is NOT God, but is claimed to be God, is a FALSE GOD,
    Minor Premise: Jesus is a person that is NOT God, but is claimed to be God,
    Therefore,
    Conclusion: Jesus is a FALSE GOD.
    See, Dartman has already affirmed BOTH the Major Premise AND the Minor Premise. Now, WERE the premises TRUE, as Dartman claims they are, the conclusion MUST be true, as well, for the syllogism is VALID. (But, as you, and I (and ALL Christians, without exception) know, Jesus IS God, and so, the Minor Premise is FALSE, and that valid syllogism is not SOUND.) Yet, Dartman, who has, out of one side of his mouth, affirmed both the premises, has, out of the other side of his mouth, denied the conclusion.

    The point of all this is that, by it, we can see clearly that Dartman is one who refuses to own that which is necessarily entailed by his own doctrines. Obviously, Dartman has some sort of hangup, or aversion, against flat-out saying, "Jesus is a FALSE GOD". Now, for him to be so bold, of course, would be for him to commit further blasphemy against Jesus, and so, it is for the best that he DOES stonewall against the questions I posed to him.

    I set no TRAP for Dartman. He set a trap for himself, by affirming both that Jesus is NOT God, and that anyone who is NOT God and is claimed to be God is a FALSE GOD. Because, now, he has forced himself into a corner with no way to explain why he denies what his own affirmations entail. I've merely shined some light on the fact, for the benefit of anyone who happens to be interested in seeing yet one more way in which anti-Trinitarianism is at bitter enmity against logic.

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  23. #24898
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    You misunderstood my post, Brother. I'm a Trinitarian. Of course Trinitarians believe and proclaim that Jesus, the Son of God, is God! Of course Jesus, the Son of God, is God!

    Perhaps you should have been reading my exchange, prior to commenting the way you just did. No harm done, though. If you backtrack a wee bit, and look into it, and then reread my questions to Dartman, then, as one who knows (against the falsehoods of the heretics) that Jesus Christ is, in fact, God, you may be pleasantly surprised at the results of the exercise.

    Observe that the Christ-hater, Dartman, the anti-Trinitarian to whom I posed those questions, must needs embarrass himself answering them. One thing many Christ-haters are loath to do is to publicly claim, in the presence of Christians (that is to say, Trinitarians), that Jesus is a FALSE GOD.

    • Dartman has already stated that Jesus is NOT God.
    • Dartman has already stated that anyone that is claimed to be God, but is NOT God, is a FALSE GOD.
    • Dartman has already contradicted himself by stating that Jesus is NOT a FALSE GOD.


    Logic, which is on the side of Ho Logos--Jesus, God the Son--is utterly despised by Christ-haters like Dartman. Observe this syllogism:



    See, Dartman has already affirmed BOTH the Major Premise AND the Minor Premise. Now, WERE the premises TRUE, as Dartman claims they are, the conclusion MUST be true, as well, for the syllogism is VALID. (But, as you, and I (and ALL Christians, without exception) know, Jesus IS God, and so, the Minor Premise is FALSE, and that valid syllogism is not SOUND.) Yet, Dartman, who has, out of one side of his mouth, affirmed both the premises, has, out of the other side of his mouth, denied the conclusion.

    The point of all this is that, by it, we can see clearly that Dartman is one who refuses to own that which is necessarily entailed by his own doctrines. Obviously, Dartman has some sort of hangup, or aversion, against flat-out saying, "Jesus is a FALSE GOD". Now, for him to be so bold, of course, would be for him to commit further blasphemy against Jesus, and so, it is for the best that he DOES stonewall against the questions I posed to him.

    I set no TRAP for Dartman. He set a trap for himself, by affirming both that Jesus is NOT God, and that anyone who is NOT God and is claimed to be God is a FALSE GOD. Because, now, he has forced himself into a corner with no way to explain why he denies what his own affirmations entail. I've merely shined some light on the fact, for the benefit of anyone who happens to be interested in seeing yet one more way in which anti-Trinitarianism is at bitter enmity against logic.
    I had that post all written up and was about to post it when it occurred to me that you might be doing just exactly what you've explained here and so, believe it or not, I did change my wording to be a lot less abrasive than my first draft was. Boy, am I glad I did! I'm very glad to find out that it was the one being asked the questions that was being dumb and not the one doing the asking.


    I was out of time or else I would have done precisely as you suggested and gone back through and read the exchange. As it was, I figured, regardless of your intent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to have someone just come right out and state in no uncertain terms that Jesus is indeed God Himself.

    Keep up the good work and God bless you!

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    P.S. Has anyone else noticed that when confronted with logic, Dartman sort of disappears?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Over 500 post club 7djengo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I had that post all written up and was about to post it when it occurred to me that you might be doing just exactly what you've explained here and so, believe it or not, I did change my wording to be a lot less abrasive than my first draft was. Boy, am I glad I did! I'm very glad to find out that it was the one being asked the questions that was being dumb and not the one doing the asking.


    I was out of time or else I would have done precisely as you suggested and gone back through and read the exchange. As it was, I figured, regardless of your intent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to have someone just come right out and state in no uncertain terms that Jesus is indeed God Himself.

    Keep up the good work and God bless you!

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    P.S. Has anyone else noticed that when confronted with logic, Dartman sort of disappears?
    Thanks, very much, Sir! God bless you, too!

    P.S. I, personally, haven't heard much of anything from Dartman for a little while, now. You might enjoy scrolling back through a handful of different TOL threads to peruse some of my varied exchanges with him from over the course of the last month or so. It's been quite interesting! I've sure learned a lot, in the process. One thing that continually strikes me is just how much the self-righteous, Christ-hating anti-Trinitarians despise logic, as though logic is an abomination unto God, and a pagan invention.

  26. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to 7djengo7 For Your Post:

    Clete (February 12th, 2019),JudgeRightly (February 12th, 2019)

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    Over 500 post club NWL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post

    [1.]Do Trinitarians claim that Jesus, the Son of God, is God? Yes or No?
    [2.]Is Jesus, Who is the Son of God, God? Yes or No?
    [3.]Is Jesus a FALSE GOD? Yes or No?

    Have fun stonewalling against these questions!

    Do not think that I will forget to keep reminding you, and everybody else, of these questions, so long as you refuse to answer them.
    I find it amusing you threaten to keep reminding Dartman of these questions when on another thread you refuse to answer mine! It's a little hypocritical of you to expect and state you'll keep asking them when you won't do the same for others, don't you think?

    Firstly you cannot demand someone to answer your questions with a yesor no when most of the questions are not yes or now questions.

    [1.]Do Trinitarians claim that Jesus, the Son of God, is God? Yes or No?

    Yes. They claim he is one of the three persons who are the one God.

    [2.]Is Jesus, Who is the Son of God, God? Yes or No?

    He is not almighty God but is God/god in a sense separate from the Father ontologically. Since your question and scripture states he is the Son of God, he obviously isn't the God who he is the Son of.

    [3.]Is Jesus a FALSE GOD? Yes or No?

    No, he is not a false God anymore than Moses is a false God when he was called God (Exodus 7:1), as with Men (John 10:34), and as with Angels and Satan when they are called Gods (Psalms 8:5, 2 Cor 4:4).
    Last edited by NWL; February 13th, 2019 at 12:22 PM.
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