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View Poll Results: Is the Trinity biblical and taught in the Bible

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Thread: The Trinity

  1. #12736
    Over 2000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas veritate View Post
    Blessed are those that do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city: for without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolaters, and whosoever loved and made a lie.

    If those who were thrown into the lake of fire after death are found outside of the city, how can they have been destroyed? We see that though they are justified unto life, they were not identified in Christ at the judgement, they were identified in their sin. Though they are reconciled and restored to life, since they are still identified in their sin, they may not enter into the city. ALL MEN are saved (delivered) from death, but only those who are identified in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit are saved (preserved) to enter into New Jerusalem where Christ resides.

    For we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, wo is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. ~ 1 Timothy 4:10
    What type of world would it be, that would be inhabited entirely by dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whomsoever loved and made a lie? A world where everything that was good and holy is forever removed, that will not look to Jesus as their savior for forgiveness of sins? That's a strange thing to count as Universal Salvation. Citizenship in a realm of distilled evil?

  2. #12737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    It would seem that they are found dead and destroyed outside the city. Does Revelation says they are found alive outside the city? My understanding is that their form has become ash, the smoky residue left over from that which is destroyed by fire.

    Mal 4:1-3
    (1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    (2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    (3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

    If the last enemy destroyed is death, that means every other enemy destroyed before that time is still subject to that death. If death were the first enemy destroyed, then that might imply something different.
    I already addressed this. Since death is the last enemy that will be destroyed, and those not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire after death, the last enemy, is destroyed: then those thrown into the lake of fire will not be destroyed. Also, there would be no need to specify who can enter into New Jerusalem if those who are outside were destroyed. Furthermore, there is no indication in any of the scriptures that talk about the lake of fire that those thrown within will be destroyed. That they are destroyed in the lake of fire is only personally inferred, and never stated outright.
    Besides that, if you have enemies, and you reconciled them to yourself so that they are no longer enemies, have you not destroyed your enemies?


    Is this not what God has done in Christ? Does the Blood of Christ not justify all men to life? There is not one person who is the enemy of God except through the alienation of one's mind. Jesus is the Savior of all men, not just some.

  3. #12738
    Over 2000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    John Gill said Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

    I've always thought of John Gill as being a fairly predictable commentator (not to say that I always agree with him) but I happened to notice this the other day:

    Jude 1:9 KJV
    (9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


    Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel,.... By whom is meant, not a created angel, but an eternal one, the Lord Jesus Christ; as appears from his name Michael, ,which signifies, "who is as God": and who is as God, or like unto him, but the Son of God, who is equal with God? and from his character as the archangel, or Prince of angels, for Christ is the head of all principality and power; and from what is elsewhere said of Michael, as that he is the great Prince, and on the side of the people of God, and to have angels under him, and at his command, Dan_10:21. So Philo the Jew (o) calls the most ancient Word, firstborn of God, the archangel; ...
    He says something similar in his commentary of Daniel 10:21 and Daniel 12:1. equating Michael to Jesus Christ, saying that Jesus is the archangel, and again in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. In all of this he affirms that Jesus is none other than our God and creator, but still... my initial thought is that "Is John Gill is the source of the Jehovah Witness doctrine of Jesus being Michael the Archangel? John Gill, the Calvinist?"

    Thoughts? Did John Gill lose his marbles? Two items of consideration:

    In favor, he does point out that the reference to "the LORD rebuke thee" in Jude with its Old Testament reference, which does throw confusion into the terms "LORD" and "angel"... where it appears that the LORD himself is the "angel of the LORD" and himself as the LORD says "the LORD rebuke thee."

    Zechariah 3:1-2 KJV
    (1) And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
    (2) And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?


    Against, is that John Gill seems to have forgotten entirely about his claim that Jesus is the archangel (which he also acknowledges as an angel) when Hebrews tells us that Jesus was no angel.

    Hebrews 1:4-8 KJV
    (4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    (5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
    (6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
    (7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
    (8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


    Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels,.... Christ is so much better than the angels, as the Creator, than the creature; as an independent being, than a dependent one; as he that blesses, than he that is blessed; as he that is worshipped, than he that worships:

    Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,.... That is, he never said to any of the angels what he has said to Christ; namely, what follows,


    thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee for though angels are called the sons of God, Job_1:6 yet are never said to be begotten by him; or, with this clause annexed to it, "this day have I begotten thee"; nor are they ever so called in a proper sense, or in such sense as Christ is: this is said to Christ, and of him,
    ... thoughts? You can get the John Gill commentary as one of the free E-sword downloads. Did Gill lose it, or does he have a valid point?
    Last edited by Rosenritter; July 18th, 2017 at 06:09 PM.

  4. #12739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    What type of world would it be, that would be inhabited entirely by dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whomsoever loved and made a lie? A world where everything that was good and holy is forever removed, that will not look to Jesus as their savior for forgiveness of sins? That's a strange thing to count as Universal Salvation. Citizenship in a realm of distilled evil?
    You do not seem to grasp the whole picture. The lake of fire is a place of divine purification. Those on the outside of New Jerusalem are merely labeled as dogs, whoremongers, sorcerers, etc. because they had died without being preserved by the Holy Spirit; and thus, never obtained the inheritance that comes with being identified in Christ. In other words, the sin they were identified with when they had died becomes their nickname. like this:

    Though Fred is justified to God and reconciled to life, because he did not acknowledge Jesus as his Lord and Savior, and he died practicing sorcery, he is known as Fred the sorcerer and cannot enter New Jerusalem because he has no inheritance therein. Remember, the good and bad are both judged by their works at the judgement.

    Because Jane, Fred's friend, acknowledged Jesus as her Lord and Savior, and her life was filled with the fruit of the spirit to prove it, she obtained the inheritance of New Jerusalem and has a dwelling place therein. She can go out and visit Fred any time she wishes, but Fred is forever separated from the direct glory of the presence of God who resides within New Jerusalem.

  5. #12740
    TOL Subscriber Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    Oh, I get it, when you come to the presence of God you will offer your church as your savior.
    Yeah that's . . . not it at all.
    "To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant"---Newman

    Matthew 16:18 AENT "I say also to you that you are Keefa, and on this Keefa I will build my assembly, and the gates of Sheol will not subdue it." (BR, emphasis mine)

    He is risen. [yellow][b][size=4] RESURRECTION [/size][/b][/yellow]

    "It's better to have a gun and need it, than not have a gun and not need it." Ricky

  6. #12741
    TOL Subscriber Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    OK... let's say I am a rich and powerful person that doesn't care what others think. Like a medieval king, a drug lord, or Justin Beiber. If I am in a position that I cannot be harmed by the consequences of my actions, and I am already granted forgiveness for all things by God in heaven, is there any incentive for me to forgive others their trespasses against me? Why should I grant indulgences to anyone in such a case?
    This hypothetical you; they believe the Gospel, that He is risen, Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV?

    Assuming so, what could we do, that's moral, about this problem?

    Are there any examples from Sacred Scripture that might inform us?
    "To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant"---Newman

    Matthew 16:18 AENT "I say also to you that you are Keefa, and on this Keefa I will build my assembly, and the gates of Sheol will not subdue it." (BR, emphasis mine)

    He is risen. [yellow][b][size=4] RESURRECTION [/size][/b][/yellow]

    "It's better to have a gun and need it, than not have a gun and not need it." Ricky

  7. #12742
    Over 2000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas veritate View Post
    I already addressed this. Since death is the last enemy that will be destroyed, and those not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire after death, the last enemy, is destroyed: then those thrown into the lake of fire will not be destroyed.
    I don't understand your reasoning here. Here's the sequence of events so far:

    1) Christ returns
    2) The rest of the dead are raised to judgment
    3) The wicked are destroyed, cast into the lake of fire
    4) Death too is destroyed, being the last remaining enemy

    What I don't see in this sequence is anything that would restore the wicked to life again.

    Also, there would be no need to specify who can enter into New Jerusalem if those who are outside were destroyed.
    Yes, there is. It's called repetition for emphasis. The scripture is full of this mechanism.

    Furthermore, there is no indication in any of the scriptures that talk about the lake of fire that those thrown within will be destroyed. That they are destroyed in the lake of fire is only personally inferred, and never stated outright.
    I'm certain that there's quite a few passages in this regard. I have seen Universalist authors (i.e. Gary Amirault) admit that the words and language of the bible do overwhelmingly teach annihilation. How many explicit statements do we need as to what the fire is expected to accomplish?

    Matthew 10:28 KJV
    (28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Matthew 3:10-12 KJV
    (10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    (11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    (12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    Besides that, if you have enemies, and you reconciled them to yourself so that they are no longer enemies, have you not destroyed your enemies?
    No, if your enemies are reconciled, there is rejoicing over even one sinner that is saved, but in that case they are redeemed, not destroyed.

    Is this not what God has done in Christ? Does the Blood of Christ not justify all men to life? There is not one person who is the enemy of God except through the alienation of one's mind. Jesus is the Savior of all men, not just some.
    Jesus is the savior of all men, but not all men will accept that savior. Unless we repent, we shall likewise perish. Perish is not a word that means to live forever. When Jesus says "ye shall likewise perish" he certainly cannot mean that we will all die once, as this happens regardless of repentance. The death he speaks of is not the first, but of the second.

    Luke 13:1-5 KJV
    (1) There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
    (2) And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
    (3) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    (4) Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
    (5) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    These are the words of that Savior, and he is saying that the prospect of eternal life is conditional. That condition is repentance.

  8. #12743
    Over 2000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas veritate View Post
    You do not seem to grasp the whole picture. The lake of fire is a place of divine purification. Those on the outside of New Jerusalem are merely labeled as dogs, whoremongers, sorcerers, etc. because they had died without being preserved by the Holy Spirit; and thus, never obtained the inheritance that comes with being identified in Christ. In other words, the sin they were identified with when they had died becomes their nickname. like this:

    Though Fred is justified to God and reconciled to life, because he did not acknowledge Jesus as his Lord and Savior, and he died practicing sorcery, he is known as Fred the sorcerer and cannot enter New Jerusalem because he has no inheritance therein. Remember, the good and bad are both judged by their works at the judgement.

    Because Jane, Fred's friend, acknowledged Jesus as her Lord and Savior, and her life was filled with the fruit of the spirit to prove it, she obtained the inheritance of New Jerusalem and has a dwelling place therein. She can go out and visit Fred any time she wishes, but Fred is forever separated from the direct glory of the presence of God who resides within New Jerusalem.
    How is that compatible with statements like these? It seems pretty emphatic that the destruction by fire is, in fact, utter destruction by fire, leaving nothing that can be restored or that remains of the original. Stubble is not known for its asbestos qualities.

    Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
    (1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    (2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    (3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

  9. #12744
    Over 2000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    This hypothetical you; they believe the Gospel, that He is risen, Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV?

    Assuming so, what could we do, that's moral, about this problem?

    Are there any examples from Sacred Scripture that might inform us?
    This hypothetical me may believe that He is risen, and has participated in all the outward sacraments of the Roman Church. This hypothetical me, however, remains hardened in heart towards my neighbor, and in his heart will not forgive offenses, whether real or imagined, although he does claim that his sins are forgiven through Christ's blood and obedience.

    Matthew 6:12-14 KJV
    (12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    (13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    (14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    Matthew 18:32-35 KJV
    (32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    (33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    (34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    (35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    1 John 4:20-21 KJV
    (20) If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
    (21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

    Please fill in the gaps as you understand them. I understand scripture differently at this point in our discussion, and the scripture that comes to mind tells me that forgiveness of sins is only applicable to those that are also willing to forgive others, and that even divine forgiveness, once granted, has the potential to be revoked.

  10. #12745
    Over 3000 post club lifeisgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    I called you ignorant for the assumptions you made about my faith in GOD.
    And then you say how dare I use certain words. You should follow your own example.

    You assume things about my faith exactly as I assume things about your faith, by what is written.

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    I'm glad you have finally changed your tune
    I have made no such leap. Such assumption is only in your imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    and agreed that faith without works is dead,
    TO BE SAVED?

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    and that we must follow the direction and inclination of the Holy Spirit.
    Something I have ALWAYS said. Therefore, YOUR assumption that your opinion has changed my mind is greatly exaggerated in your imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    Progress
    In your imagination.
    No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
    No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:1318)
    No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:2324)

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  12. #12746
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    And then you say how dare I use certain words. You should follow your own example.

    You assume things about my faith exactly as I assume things about your faith, by what is written.



    I have made no such leap. Such assumption is only in your imagination.



    TO BE SAVED?



    Something I have ALWAYS said. Therefore, YOUR assumption that your opinion has changed my mind is greatly exaggerated in your imagination.



    In your imagination.
    What did I assume about your faith?

    I tried to let go of what your assumption and derogatory remarks in regards to my reception of faith and the origins there of. I called you ignorant as opposed to a knowing liar.

    You yourself contradict yourself with every post it seems.

    Either faith alone is dead or not.

    Either works to the glorying of GOD are a product of effectual faith or not.


    Either you believe the teachings and example of the Christ of GOD or not; you claim you don't because it isn't needed because all one must do is believe; but to believe is to act according to said belief.

    You claim to be dead, but are in no way dead to the sins of the flesh that you not only openly commit, but have no remorse or sorrow or shame or conviction of the conscience when you sin knowingly; to those who know, that's called a seared conscience, but to you it is called being safe.

    Let's just wait and see since you don't want to have an actual conversation on the matter.




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  13. #12747
    Over 3000 post club lifeisgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    What did I assume about your faith?
    Part of what you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    I'm glad you have finally changed your tune...
    I have not changed my 'tune' as you put it.

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    I tried to let go of what your assumption and derogatory remarks in regards to my reception of faith and the origins there of. I called you ignorant as opposed to a knowing liar.
    Man, you have a spirit of persecution also? When did I make derogatory remarks about your faith?

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    You yourself contradict yourself with every post it seems.
    Nah, I think you have a reading comprehension problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    Either faith alone is dead or not.
    TO BE SAVED?

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    Either works to the glorying of GOD are a product of effectual faith or not.
    TO BE SAVED?

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    Either you believe the teachings and example of the Christ of GOD or not; you claim you don't because it isn't needed because all one must do is believe; but to believe is to act according to said belief.
    How much of your work, obedience, good deeds, etc. did you bring TO BE SAVED?

    How much did you help Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work on the Cross of Calvary TO BE SAVED?

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    You claim to be dead,
    If you are in Christ, you are already dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    but are in no way dead to the sins of the flesh that you not only openly commit,
    Do you have proof of what you are accusing me of?

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    but have no remorse or sorrow or shame or conviction of the conscience when you sin knowingly;
    Are you sure of what you are accusing me of?

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    to those who know, that's called a seared conscience, but to you it is called being safe.
    So, now you are God and 'you know'. What do 'you know' about someone you have NEVER met?

    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    Let's just wait and see since you don't want to have an actual conversation on the matter.
    You've got to be kidding.

    You want to have a conversation about your sins of the flesh you commit openly?

    I do not want to know your sins of the flesh you commit openly. That is between you and God and not between you and my person.
    No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
    No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:1318)
    No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:2324)

  14. #12748
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    Part of what you said:


    I have not changed my 'tune' as you put it.



    Man, you have a spirit of persecution also? When did I make derogatory remarks about your faith?



    Nah, I think you have a reading comprehension problem.



    TO BE SAVED?



    TO BE SAVED?



    How much of your work, obedience, good deeds, etc. did you bring TO BE SAVED?

    How much did you help Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work on the Cross of Calvary TO BE SAVED?



    If you are in Christ, you are already dead.



    Do you have proof of what you are accusing me of?



    Are you sure of what you are accusing me of?



    So, now you are God and 'you know'. What do 'you know' about someone you have NEVER met?



    You've got to be kidding.

    You want to have a conversation about your sins of the flesh you commit openly?

    I do not want to know your sins of the flesh you commit openly. That is between you and God and not between you and my person.
    What part of what I said assumed something about your faith, or rather, the origin of your faith?

    You did change your tune. You've been saying this whole time that faith and belief are ineffectual. No! Don't claim poor reading comprehension on my part because you're having trouble understanding.
    If you think one doesn't do anything in response to the free gift of faith then you think faith is ineffectual.
    If you think belief is simply telling others you believe, as opposed to living in belief as if it is actually true, then you're telling others belief is equal to what they were before their belief and the free gift of faith IN GOD.

    What did you say about my faith? The part where you said it wasn't from the Holy Spirit; or the part where you equated it's effects similar to the actions of a pagan?

    I don't have a reading comprehension problem. Stop projecting your shortcomings onto others.

    You claim I have a reading comprehension problem. You also claim the Christ of GOD didn't preach for any reason whatsoever evidently, as you claim the teachings are of no significance and not to be adhered to by the believer. You not believing the words of the Son of GOD, yet constantly gravitating towards the "death" of GOD isn't worrisome to you? Oh...thats right; no conscience.

    I've never heard of the foundation being too the finished product, but the structure to be built upon. To you though, the foundation is the finished product. It really is sad. Do you think He sacrificed Himself for your sake, just so you can act upon your every desire, yet act not upon what you believe (know). Belief is knowledge in case you were wondering. To do nothing with that knowledge upon reception is chaos and indifference. I would ask you to reference Jesus's words in scripture supporting your false claim and broken, fake belief; but it would be an exercise in futility as one who thinks so little of His words wouldnt have a clue about them most likely.

    How much did I bring to be saved? What did I do? Trick questions. Any proclaiming osas as complete truth is lying to themselves. It isn't about what one brings to a thing they are unaware is going to happen; it is what they do with the foundation their beliefs are set up on. How is a foundation and material a completed house?

    How does actual belief (knowledge) allow one to remain in the dark?

    To believe is to live according to said belief as if it is true. Unless you don't beleive it to be true.

    Everyone works at all times at something. It is either good or bad. Actual faith in GOD grows, and with said growth it does produce good fruit (works). If it doesn't produce, or produces bad fruit (works) then it isn't really faith, and will never lead to faithfulness to the bridegroom. But please; do show me faith without works, and while your at it, show me how faith isn't effectual to the believer and that the eternal GOD died so you can promote all evil, while playing dumb.

    I did nothing to help Christ as I knew him not. What is your excuse? Did the Holy Spirit imform you to preach against the teachings of the Christ?

    If you were dead to sin then you wouldn't sin, not just ignore it when you do. If you had died in Christ then you would be new, now, at this time; and assuredly not speaking the gross insidious lies you do. What lie you ask? That faith is ineffectual and belief is indifference mixed with lip service.

    Do I have proof of your seared conscience; you give more with each response.

    I will NEVER equate myself to more than nothing but what GOD has provided.

    When did I say I was GOD....oh, that's right; projection and lack of reading comprehension; I wasn't even talking about you when i said "I know".

    Yes, that is exactly what I said; you read really, really well.

    In case you missed it due to lack of comprehension; that was an attempt at sarcasm.


    Your person; equating GOD to just another person again I see. Wait, sorry; three people....but I'm the pagan.....please...

    Now.... I'm done with this little game. I gave you ample chance to avoid this wholly, but you refused.

    Your words are a waste of my time, and my words back to you, you have made up your mind not to hear. It wasn't my intent to drag this out, but to avoid it. I will attempt to avoid it again. But it may be dependent upon your words and actions as well, as difficult a concept that may be for you to grasp.





    Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

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    Over 3000 post club marhig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    I see what you mean when you speak of Jesus being dead to sin; however, I do not think it is correct to say Jesus was dead, because that is what Jesus said about those who were not alive with truth.

    Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."


    Do you see what I mean?

    We die to the sins of the world but we are alive because we live our new life in Christ.


    Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
    GT, you've got me wrong, when I said that Jesus was dead, I don't mean spiritually, I mean to his flesh and the world. Because he didn't sin, not once, and this world had nothing in him, so he was dead to it. And baptised by the Holy Spirit unto death. Meaning, once we are born of God and walk in the Spirit, then we become alive in God and start to die to self, and or old ways should be dead to us.

    Thus we are buried with him (our fleshly life gone) through baptism (of the Spirit) and we are then raised with Christ by the power of the Spirit, and born of God. We then enter into a new life, into a new and living way in God walking in the Spirit and this world should mean nothing to us, just as it meant nothing to Jesus, it was the people he cared for not the things of this world, and those who belong to him and live through him, should love one another, and have the same heart towards God and others as he has.

    The dead burying the dead is being dead to God, and it isn't the same dead as I'm talking about regarding Jesus, he was dead to this world and the lusts and desires that come with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Jesus shed his blood---on the cross.

    He is the Lamb of God. The lambs blood was shed in the Old Testament, and it was a shadow of Christ, of what Jesus would do for us. Jesus' blood was literally shed for our sins.



    Yes, because God the Father says so.



    Then you are saying Jesus didn't need to die on the cross.

    Doesn't all those scriptures I gave you about the Lamb being sacrificed mean anything to you?
    I never once said that Jesus didn't have to go through the cross, I know he had to bare and overcome whatever we set before him. What I believe is that we are not saved by the death of Jesus but by his life, through him, by the grace of God through faith.

    And to me, Christ Jesus came as a living sacrifice not a dead one!

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