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Thread: What if God needed Adam to fall early on?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I thought you said regeneration was the key to understanding. Now you are saying repentance is the key that brings clarity. Which is it?

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    Regeneration and repentance are simultaneous. Both are graces that renew the mind/intellect.It has to be experienced to be understood. "Understanding", that is of the mind as well.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

  2. #32
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    But then what? God's ONLY begotten son was already slated to redeem Adam's children, who were condemned to death because of Adam's sin.
    To what "death" are you making reference?

  3. #33
    Over 750 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Regeneration and repentance are simultaneous. Both are graces that renew the mind/intellect.
    Ok, then if regeneration and repentance are simultaneous, does belief precede or follow? It sounds like the mind must be renewed first, before one can believe, correct? Isn't repentance the same? If we truly repent, we must have a change of minds about God and His commands. Thus it seems like you are really saying that repentance AND belief must FOLLOW regeneration, despite your words?

    But Paul seems to think otherwise. In Rom 12:1-2, he says to "Brothers" (which must mean fellow believers, yes?), that they need to be transformed by the renewing of their minds. Thus, the renewing has not happened yet, but they are already brothers. "...but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to discern ..."

    It has to be experienced to be understood. "Understanding", that is of the mind as well.?
    You have to experience eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to understand it? I guess that makes sense, but seems like a no-brainer--what's your point about it?

  4. #34
    Over 750 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    To what "death" are you making reference?
    Let's just say, for discussion's sake, the death that Christ came to reverse/defeat with His death on the cross.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Ok, then if regeneration and repentance are simultaneous, does belief precede or follow? It sounds like the mind must be renewed first, before one can believe, correct? Isn't repentance the same? If we truly repent, we must have a change of minds about God and His commands. Thus it seems like you are really saying that repentance AND belief must FOLLOW regeneration, despite your words?

    But Paul seems to think otherwise. In Rom 12:1-2, he says to "Brothers" (which must mean fellow believers, yes?), that they need to be transformed by the renewing of their minds. Thus, the renewing has not happened yet, but they are already brothers. "...but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to discern ..."


    You have to experience eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to understand it? I guess that makes sense, but seems like a no-brainer--what's your point about it?
    You wander in the dark pretending you can see. I'll not be giving that which is holy...
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

  6. #36
    Over 750 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    You wander in the dark pretending you can see. I'll not be giving that which is holy...
    To dogs? I'm asking you questions about your faith. Are you not willing to give an answer for the hope that lies within you? Or not able to?

    And you have to think for just a second. If the faith of a Christian is only understood by the regenerate, then you have to wonder if YOU really understand it, don't you think?? And maybe you're not a Christian, but only think you are, because maybe you're not really regenerated.

    If that doesn't hit you like a ton of bricks, put yourself in my supposed shoes for just a minute. I accepted Christ when I was young, believing that His blood was powerful enough to save me from death and hell. I continue to believe in Him today. Yet I've been deceived all these years and continue to be deceived today, because there's some kind of secret initiation that God gives to those He deems worthy.

    Secret initiations are tough on everyone, because even if you think you're in the know, maybe you're not--maybe you just THINK you understand, but only the next level up of understanding is good enough to get into the secret club.

    Please consider that maybe, just maybe, God really wants people to know about Him and believe in Him, and He provided the "good news" to us in such a way that we don't have to be a member of a special club to receive and process and understand and accept the "good news". If not, then the good news is only good for those people who don't need it. Like you, I suppose. For the rest of us, who aren't allowed in, it's pretty bad news, I'm afraid. News fit for dogs, yes???

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    You accepted Christ? By this of course it is evident that if you hadn't then Messiah was powerless to save. Your concept of the power of the evangelism is warped.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

  8. #38
    Over 750 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    You accepted Christ? By this of course it is evident that if you hadn't then Messiah was powerless to save. Your concept of the power of the evangelism is warped.
    You haven't? Would you like to know about how you can be saved?

    Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. You don't even have to wait for someone to tell you you've been regenerated (or not)!

    Whereas from what I'm hearing from you, your evangelism says--don't bother believing, because if you believe without regeneration, your belief isn't effective. And belief with regeneration is an unknown process by which you really don't know if it has happened or not--you just assume it has to you and assume it hasn't to everyone you don't agree with.

    Be careful: you might be one of those individuals who THINKS they are saved, only to fall away at the end of your life, because God really doesn't love you enough to want you to live forever.

    Whose concept of evangelism is warped?

    [1Co 15:1-4 KJV] 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


    But still...what does this have to do with the topic. If we can only have meaningful conversations if you, the keeper of the keys of heaven apparently, allow me to be considered regenerate, then I appreciate the time you've wasted on me so far, and I hope you enjoy the meaningless content in this forum.

    If, however, there's a possibility that some of our conversation might still be somewhat intelligible, I urge you to continue with me in it. It's up to you (or up to God who ordained this conversation to be perfectly meaningless from all eternity, but also ordained that you be stuck in it, perhaps).

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