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Thread: What if God needed Adam to fall early on?

  1. #16
    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    I was thinking more of emotional and spiritual pain -
    Yes, that makes sense--that we often need those things to drive us to God. Do you think it's because of our sin that it now takes those kind of things to get us to return to Him? Didn't seem like those things were needed in the Garden.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    My understanding of the open view suggests that people were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, not as specific individuals, but that God planned for the second Adam to have "descendants" so to speak, and all descendants of Christ--those that would be "in Christ" by belief in Him--were chosen as a group "in Christ". If everybody was chosen that was going to be saved ahead of time, then all that were not chosen were not "so loved by God that He gave His only son".
    Let us look at this passage where Peter is describing those who received his epistle as "elect according to the foreknowledge of God":

    "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied...Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls" (1 Pet.1:1-2,9).

    We can understand that when Peter uses the pronouns "you" and "your" in this passage He is speaking of "individual" salvation." Of course it is "individuals" who are saved because it is individuals who do the thing which results in salvation. Here we see Paul and those with him telling an "individual" how he can be saved:

    "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

    Therefore, the Lord's choosing is in regard to choosing "individuals."

    Derf, if I made a mistake in my reasoning then please tell me exactly where I made an error.

    Thanks!

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    If you experience regeneration then all the above and more will be clear. The symbolism of the strait gate and the narrow way becomes obvious to those that have passed through the gate and are in the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Hi Truster,
    Thanks for taking the time to reply.

    Some reasons I have a hard time with that being a reason the fall was decreed:
    1. If God decided to save some without their input, then He might as well have made them not to sin in the first place.

    2. My understanding of the open view suggests that people were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, not as specific individuals, but that God planned for the second Adam to have "descendants" so to speak, and all descendants of Christ--those that would be "in Christ" by belief in Him--were chosen as a group "in Christ". If everybody was chosen that was going to be saved ahead of time, then all that were not chosen were not "so loved by God that He gave His only son".

    3. The "in Christ" seems to me to be an antitype of those that sinned "in Adam", by coming from his loins, similar to Levi giving a tithe to Melchizedek through Abraham (Heb 7:9).


    If, however, God decreed the fall in order to make sure that all could be saved (even if all are not), then He shows His love--His agape love that may go unrequited.

    What do you think?
    If you experience regeneration then all the above and more will be clear. The symbolism of the strait gate and the narrow way becomes obvious to those that have passed through the gate and are in the way.

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    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    If you experience regeneration then all the above and more will be clear. The symbolism of the strait gate and the narrow way becomes obvious to those that have passed through the gate and are in the way.
    So you are asserting that I don't understand what you're saying because I'm not regenerated.

    Let's pretend that's true for just a minute. That means that my belief in Jesus Christ as the only Son of God and the only hope of salvation, who died for my sins and rose again to demonstrate what waits for us who believe, i.e. resurrection from the dead, is a false gospel. Because something else needs to happen apart from belief in Christ for me to be regenerated.

    Is that truly what you are saying?

    Not only that, but such a response is a cop out--it removes from you the responsibility of giving an answer for the hope that lies within you. Only the regenerate will understand the important stuff anyway--and they already know it--so there's no need to explain anything important. Kind of makes me wonder why you would respond to anything in one of these forums--those who understand won't need to hear your response, and everybody else CAN'T understand your response.

    Kind of makes all Christianity seem like an exercise of preaching to the choir, don't you think? But Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS, not the regenerate--they don't need saving.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    It was important that Adam sin before his children were conceived or born--I'm not sure which.
    Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Why?
    I'm postulating here, just remember.

    I think it was important so that all of the people on the whole earth would be covered by Jesus' sacrifice. Let's say that Adam and Eve bore Cain prior to their own sin. Cain would then not die because of Adam's sin, but he might sin of his own accord. I know you have your own opinion about what the original sin did, but you must admit that it did something that caused a lot of problems for the whole of creation (and I'll limit it to the physical creation for this discussion). But that whole of creation was under Adam's dominion, and the whole of creation was inferior to Adam--Adam (and Eve, of course) were made in God's image, while the rest of creation was not.

    If then Cain was born before the big sin, and he also sinned, then would Jesus have only been able to die for the one from whose line He came?

    There are some holes in my story that I don't know how to fill. Like, what about Eve? She was made from Adam's rib prior to their sin. Maybe it was important that both sin in essentially the same act.

    And if Cain married a daughter of Adam, then all their children might be subject to death, similar to Adam's descendants, but that would suggest that Jesus was subject to death for the same reason, which I don't think is the case.

    At the very least, it seems like Cain would be under the curse for Adam's sin in the same way that the animals are, yet if he was as much made in God's image as Adam, then it doesn't seem to equal out.

    Part of the reason I question this episode's meaning is that the sin seems so simple. Almost like God wanted them to sin, and quickly. Yet if God is not the author of sin, He wouldn't have forced them to.

    I know you don't agree with some of my premises, but put that aside, if you can, and see if you can help me think through this with my assumptions intact.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I'm postulating here, just remember.

    I think it was important so that all of the people on the whole earth would be covered by Jesus' sacrifice.
    If Adam would have remained in a state of innocence and therefore remained sinless then he could have continued to eat of the Tree of Life and live for ever.

    Then what need would he have had for the Lord Jesus dying on the cross? Was Christ's sacrifice for men's sins not necessary until a man became guilty of sinning?

    What do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If Adam would have remained in a state of innocence and therefore remained sinless then he could have continued to eat of the Tree of Life and live for ever.

    Then what need would he have had for the Lord Jesus dying on the cross? Was Christ's sacrifice for men's sins not necessary until a man became guilty of sinning?

    What do you think?
    I don't see the point of Christ's sacrifice for a sinless man that was not going to die. Christ died to save the ungodly....from death.

    Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I don't see the point of Christ's sacrifice for a sinless man that was not going to die. Christ died to save the ungodly....from death.
    Yes, I agree. So I do not think that it was necessary "that all of the people on the whole earth would be covered by Jesus' sacrifice," as you said earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, I agree. So I do not think that it was necessary "that all of the people on the whole earth would be covered by Jesus' sacrifice," as you said earlier.
    But, if there's a possibility of sin for those that were born to Adam before he sinned, then Jesus' death becomes a necessity for them, but maybe it doesn't apply to them in the same way.

    Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    But, if there's a possibility of sin for those that were born to Adam before he sinned, then Jesus' death becomes a necessity for them, but maybe it doesn't apply to them in the same way.
    Yes, but not until they sin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, but not until they sin.
    But then what? God's ONLY begotten son was already slated to redeem Adam's children, who were condemned to death because of Adam's sin.

    Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    So you are asserting that I don't understand what you're saying because I'm not regenerated.

    Let's pretend that's true for just a minute. That means that my belief in Jesus Christ as the only Son of God and the only hope of salvation, who died for my sins and rose again to demonstrate what waits for us who believe, i.e. resurrection from the dead, is a false gospel. Because something else needs to happen apart from belief in Christ for me to be regenerated.

    Is that truly what you are saying?

    Not only that, but such a response is a cop out--it removes from you the responsibility of giving an answer for the hope that lies within you. Only the regenerate will understand the important stuff anyway--and they already know it--so there's no need to explain anything important. Kind of makes me wonder why you would respond to anything in one of these forums--those who understand won't need to hear your response, and everybody else CAN'T understand your response.

    Kind of makes all Christianity seem like an exercise of preaching to the choir, don't you think? But Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS, not the regenerate--they don't need saving.
    A belief in the historical existence of Messiah and the doctrine of salvation is not salvation. Even if you should shout it from the roof tops every day, it is not salvation. Regeneration or the new birth is the start of salvation and without the experience of being taken out of darkness into light, from death to life and the clarity that repentance provides a man has a form of religion, but denies the power of the evangelism.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Truster For Your Post:

    patrick jane (March 5th, 2017)

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    A belief in the historical existence of Messiah and the doctrine of salvation is not salvation. Even if you should shout it from the roof tops every day, it is not salvation. Regeneration or the new birth is the start of salvation and without the experience of being taken out of darkness into light, from death to life and the clarity that repentance provides a man has a form of religion, but denies the power of the evangelism.
    I thought you said regeneration was the key to understanding. Now you are saying repentance is the key that brings clarity. Which is it?

    Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app
    Last edited by Derf; March 5th, 2017 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Clarity

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