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Thread: What if God needed Adam to fall early on?

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    What if God needed Adam to fall early on?

    I'm just trying to think this thing through. I'm inclined toward the open view of the future, but in some cases it tends to wrap back around toward something that looks Calvinistic. For example, Adam and Eve in the garden...

    Here's my scenario. God decides to create a being that can reproduce that can have relationship with Him. To do so, man has to be able to reject Him, because a love that is forced is no love at all. Recognizing this, God knows that at least some men will succumb and will reject him. Probably a lot will. So He sets up a way to save the world He plans to make. Since rejecting the God (or disobeying Him--"if you love me, keep my commandments") who holds the universe together results in rejecting Him holding you together, death is the result.

    To save a disobedient man from death, requires a death. I don't know why, but apparently that's the rule God applies to all. So assuming this universal rule, I can see how God would put in place a plan for His own son to die to save those who reject Him/His commands.

    Here's the rub: it seems that the only way for God's Son's death to be effective is for His Son to become one of the race that sinned (again, I don't know why this rule is in play, but it seems to be so). If, then God's Son--His ONLY Son--needs to 1) be a part of the race of those He intends to save, and 2) needs to die once and never again, then He's limited in how many He can save UNLESS...

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    ...UNLESS the first man sins BEFORE he has offspring.

    So, what if God actually put man in the garden to fail (apologies to the other post along this line) and it was because He needed him to fail that the test was so easy, and that Satan was there to entice him?

    The reason He needed him to fail is to make sure that there were no people that were not covered in His plan for salvation. Note that I didn't say "no people that were not saved", but all could have access to the salvation.

    So in my scenario,
    • God doesn't force man to fall
    • but He needs him to fall
    • needs him to fall early, before he has children
    • Satan is actually doing God's bidding in the garden
    • Jesus Christ then can save all mankind, not just some
    • But not all are saved because not all believe (a different thread, not to be discussed here)


    This doesn't try to account for the role of women (apologies to women), specifically of Eve. Please don't hold that against me for this conversation, at least.

    But it does suggest why there was only one prohibition in the garden, and it also gives man responsibility for his sin, despite God's sovereignty in "making" it come to pass.

    If you reply to this thread, please know that I appreciate and desire to hear all contrary arguments, but I will likely argue back--not because I do't appreciate the opposing view, but because I want to flesh it out, in what I perceive to be the foundational spirit of TOL.

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    The fall was certainly decreed, because the people Messiah would redeem were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. They were chosen in Him because they would need to be saved.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    The fall was certainly decreed, because the people Messiah would redeem were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. They were chosen in Him because they would need to be saved.
    Hi Truster,
    Thanks for taking the time to reply.

    Some reasons I have a hard time with that being a reason the fall was decreed:
    1. If God decided to save some without their input, then He might as well have made them not to sin in the first place.

    2. My understanding of the open view suggests that people were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, not as specific individuals, but that God planned for the second Adam to have "descendants" so to speak, and all descendants of Christ--those that would be "in Christ" by belief in Him--were chosen as a group "in Christ". If everybody was chosen that was going to be saved ahead of time, then all that were not chosen were not "so loved by God that He gave His only son".

    3. The "in Christ" seems to me to be an antitype of those that sinned "in Adam", by coming from his loins, similar to Levi giving a tithe to Melchizedek through Abraham (Heb 7:9).


    If, however, God decreed the fall in order to make sure that all could be saved (even if all are not), then He shows His love--His agape love that may go unrequited.

    What do you think?

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    1. If God decided to save some without their input, then He might as well have made them not to sin in the first place.

    Prior to the creation of the earth and of man. The host of heaven only knew of the justice, wrath and power of the Almighty. There was no redemption, forgiveness or grace unto the angels that fell.
    To manifest His grace it was necessary to have a reason for the display of the attributes of grace. These were displayed in Yah Veh coming to seek and to save Adam and Eve.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    1. If God decided to save some without their input, then He might as well have made them not to sin in the first place.

    Prior to the creation of the earth and of man. The host of heaven only knew of the justice, wrath and power of the Almighty. There was no redemption, forgiveness or grace unto the angels that fell.
    To manifest His grace it was necessary to have a reason for the display of the attributes of grace. These were displayed in Yah Veh coming to seek and to save Adam and Eve.
    Why does He need to manifest His grace to the angels, to whom grace is not available? Seems like a mean streak in God, which I don't believe to be the case.

    And if He NEEDS to manifest His grace, and He requires sinners to do so, then He is unfulfilled without sin. Therefor you've just told me that God NEEDS sin.

    Maybe I misunderstood where you were heading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Why does He need to manifest His grace to the angels, to whom grace is not available? Seems like a mean streak in God, which I don't believe to be the case.

    And if He NEEDS to manifest His grace, and He requires sinners to do so, then He is unfulfilled without sin. Therefor you've just told me that God NEEDS sin.

    Maybe I misunderstood where you were heading.
    He doesn't ''have to'' and He doesn't ''need to''. He choses to.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    He doesn't ''have to'' and He doesn't ''need to''. He choses to.
    Ok, Then back to my other assertion: If he doesn't need to manifest His grace, for what purpose is it to manifest grace to those that can't partake in it--the angels, that is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Ok, Then back to my other assertion: If he doesn't need to manifest His grace, for what purpose is it to manifest grace to those that can't partake in it--the angels, that is?
    The angels that fell glorify His Holiness, judgement and His wrath. The angels that stood, in their first state, did so by grace and this will be to His glory. This is revealed in Ephesians:

    Ephesians 1:10 KJV
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    The angels that fell glorify His Holiness, judgement and His wrath. The angels that stood, in their first state, did so by grace and this will be to His glory. This is revealed in Ephesians:

    Ephesians 1:10 KJV
    I'm not sure I can see from that verse how angels stood in their first estate "by grace". It neither mentions angels (directly) or grace (at all). If "all things in heaven" counts for angels, then "all things on earth" must count for demons, yes?

    So is it grace that brings punishment to demons? That doesn't seem to fit any definition of grace I ever heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Why does He need to manifest His grace to the angels, to whom grace is not available? Seems like a mean streak in God, which I don't believe to be the case.

    And if He NEEDS to manifest His grace, and He requires sinners to do so, then He is unfulfilled without sin. Therefor you've just told me that God NEEDS sin.

    Maybe I misunderstood where you were heading.
    Maybe we, God's children must experience sin, pain and suffering, disease and death, in order to completely know God and return to Him in the end.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    ...UNLESS the first man sins BEFORE he has offspring.

    So, what if God actually put man in the garden to fail (apologies to the other post along this line) and it was because He needed him to fail that the test was so easy, and that Satan was there to entice him?

    The reason He needed him to fail is to make sure that there were no people that were not covered in His plan for salvation. Note that I didn't say "no people that were not saved", but all could have access to the salvation.

    So in my scenario,
    • God doesn't force man to fall
    • but He needs him to fall
    • needs him to fall early, before he has children
    • Satan is actually doing God's bidding in the garden
    • Jesus Christ then can save all mankind, not just some
    • But not all are saved because not all believe (a different thread, not to be discussed here)


    This doesn't try to account for the role of women (apologies to women), specifically of Eve. Please don't hold that against me for this conversation, at least.

    But it does suggest why there was only one prohibition in the garden, and it also gives man responsibility for his sin, despite God's sovereignty in "making" it come to pass.

    If you reply to this thread, please know that I appreciate and desire to hear all contrary arguments, but I will likely argue back--not because I do't appreciate the opposing view, but because I want to flesh it out, in what I perceive to be the foundational spirit of TOL.
    God allowed, not needed.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    God allowed, not needed.
    Hi PJ,
    Yes, but no. My assertion is that God needed ADAM to fall to keep from losing everybody else. Yes, He allowed Adam to fall. But no, He also needed Adam to fall (before he had offspring) in order for his plan to save the world to succeed.

    It was important that Adam sin before his children were conceived or born--I'm not sure which.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Maybe we, God's children must experience sin, pain and suffering, disease and death, in order to completely know God and return to Him in the end.
    If those things are "needed" then God "needed" Adam to fall. So you agree with my premise, but for different reasons?

    I can see how knowing sin, pain, suffering, disease, and death would help us to better appreciate God, and help us want to return to Him. That suggests that God needs sin, etc., for His glory to be full. I'm not sure I buy that. I think that's what Truster was saying, too. Maybe it is the case, but it seems like it puts God in a box that He doesn't fit in too well. And that He then must be the author of sin for His full glory to manifest.

    But Adam didn't need those things in the beginning. Neither did he need to "return" to God prior to his fall. And if he obeyed, then presumably those things (sin, suffering, disease, death) would never have begun. I'm not sure pain fits with those others in your list. God told Eve he would "multiply" her pain in childbirth, not introduce pain in childbirth. Pain is one of those things that is necessary for survival--it keeps us from burning ourselves and cutting off our fingers and such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    If those things are "needed" then God "needed" Adam to fall. So you agree with my premise, but for different reasons?

    I can see how knowing sin, pain, suffering, disease, and death would help us to better appreciate God, and help us want to return to Him. That suggests that God needs sin, etc., for His glory to be full. I'm not sure I buy that. I think that's what Truster was saying, too. Maybe it is the case, but it seems like it puts God in a box that He doesn't fit in too well. And that He then must be the author of sin for His full glory to manifest.

    But Adam didn't need those things in the beginning. Neither did he need to "return" to God prior to his fall. And if he obeyed, then presumably those things (sin, suffering, disease, death) would never have begun. I'm not sure pain fits with those others in your list. God told Eve he would "multiply" her pain in childbirth, not introduce pain in childbirth. Pain is one of those things that is necessary for survival--it keeps us from burning ourselves and cutting off our fingers and such.
    I was thinking more of emotional and spiritual pain -
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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