ECT Does the book of James contradict Paul's epistles? How?

oatmeal · Feb 6, 2015

SaulToPaul said:
Have you gone back to Genesis and studied how God dealt with Abraham before circumcision and how God dealt with Abraham after circumcision?

If you have believed 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) and trusted the LORD, having spiritual eyes, you can understand.

Did your parents treat you different before you moved out their house from after you moved out?

Did they treat you different from before you were potty trained compared to after?

Did the law of Moses make any changes in how believers were to conduct their lives than before?

oatmeal · Feb 6, 2015

Arsenios said:
Well, I have been trying to make sense out of their cockamamie Two Gospels gospel for some years now, and they are obnoxious enough in their defense of it so as to obscure the bones of their thinking...

What I gave is the best I have been able to come up with so far...

I simply hope it is helpful...

For them more than for you, mind you...

But for you as well...

Arsenios

Thanks

SaulToPaul 2 · Feb 6, 2015

oatmeal said:
Did your parents treat you different before you moved out their house from after you moved out?

Did they treat you different from before you were potty trained compared to after?

Did the law of Moses make any changes in how believers were to conduct their lives than before?

Regardless,

You need to go back and study it.

Gal 2:7 (KJV) will never make sense until you do, and accept the differences in how God dealt with Abraham.

Right Divider · Feb 6, 2015

Arsenios said:
Please forgive me... I love the Truth...

No need for forgiveness. You just over-complicate simple things. That has nothing to do with loving the Truth. It's more like loving confusion.

Arsenios said:
Yes... Two Greek names...

Yes.

Arsenios said:
They are the same word with two different beginning consonants...

Very astute!

Arsenios said:
So you are right, they are two distinct Greek words... The question, since the language of the Hebrews differs greatly from the Greek, is one that asks: "Do these two Greek words translate the same Hebrew word?"

That is absolutely pointless. Paulos is a Greek name.

Arsenios said:
I really don't think Scripture addresses that issue... It simply says: "But Saul who is also Paul..."

Arsenios said:
I would agree... And perhaps when he told them his name, he pronounced it in such a way as to be ambiguous in spelling, where some Gentiles would pronounce it one way, and others another way... Maybe the Roman name was Paul, but the Jews Saul, and who knows how the Corinthinans or the Galatians would have spelled their pronunciation...??

But the Acts passage you cited only would seem to tell us that they are interchangeable... "But Saul, who is also Paul..." That is why I ran this by the "Saul to Paul" poster, because I had formerly believed that the name Paul evolved from the name Saul as Saul matured in the Faith to become Paul... And as it turns out, I seem to have been wrong...

Not the first time either, I hasten to add...

And it does call into question the implied meaning of progression from Saul to Paul that the Saul-to-Paul moniker would seem to imply...

It is quite well known among anyone that is not a rabid unbeliever that Luke was an excellent historian. In both of his writings, everything regarding his history is extremely detailed and accurate. The fact that he refers to this man as Saul up to Acts chapter 13 and then to Paul after that is very telling to anyone that cares to understand this man.

Once Luke tells us that Saul is also called Paul, he NEVER again even once uses the name Saul again. It is also very telling that Luke had been a close associate of Peter until Acts 16 where ALL of the personal pronouns used to speak of Paul and his associates changes from THEM and THEY to US the WE. This change is also interesting in the fact that Peter is never mentioned after Acts 15. (These are facts that anti-MADers either ignore or come up with some incredibly convoluted 'argument' to explain).

oatmeal · Feb 6, 2015

SaulToPaul said:
Regardless,

You need to go back and study it.

Gal 2:7 (KJV) will never make sense until you do, and accept the differences in how God dealt with Abraham.

Galatians 2:7 makes plenty of sense to me for I let scripture explain it.

Arsenios · Feb 6, 2015

Right Divider said:
No need for forgiveness. You just over-complicate simple things. That has nothing to do with loving the Truth. It's more like loving confusion.

Yes.

Very astute!

That is absolutely pointless. Paulos is a Greek name.

It is quite well known among anyone that is not a rabid unbeliever that Luke was an excellent historian. In both of his writings, everything regarding his history is extremely detailed and accurate. The fact that he refers to this man as Saul up to Acts chapter 13 and then to Paul after that is very telling to anyone that cares to understand this man.

Once Luke tells us that Saul is also called Paul, he NEVER again even once uses the name Saul again. It is also very telling that Luke had been a close associate of Peter until Acts 16 where ALL of the personal pronouns used to speak of Paul and his associates changes from THEM and THEY to US the WE. This change is also interesting in the fact that Peter is never mentioned after Acts 15. (These are facts that anti-MADers either ignore or come up with some incredibly convoluted 'argument' to explain).

Thank-you - Paul DID manage to become the Received Name of the Apostle... And Acts MAY have been written in stages... So it is no Mystery if after the decision had been made on the Greek name Paulos, that no further reference to Saulos would be made... And if the earlier Acts had been already distributed, then the transition we looked at would not be retroactive, which would account for your observations...

As well, the change from "them" to "we" is easily accounted for as a consequence of the first Council at Jerusalem, where Paul's views prevailed through the testimony of Peter... By then, you see, the Jews were done converting to Christianity by and large, and the Gentiles were just beginning to blossom forth, where Peter himself baptized Cornelius and his party when the Holy Spirit testified of their preparedness by giving them the gift of tongues...

This is a sad point in the Christian Faith, for it marks God's shift from the Jews who had rejected Christ to the Gentiles who were embracing Him... It was here that God gave up on the Jews...

I really think, RD, that the text simply does not address the issue which Dr. Hopko raises, and your accounting, of which I had not been aware, itself simply reflects the shift of his name from the Jewish Saul to the Gentile Paul as God moved the Church into the hands of the Gentiles who took it over as the Jews increased their persecutions of Christian Jews and pretty much drove them from Jerusalem...

It would not surprise me if the Gentiles were unable to properly pronounce Saul, and that Saul came our Paul in their tongues most of the time, and so the name was shifted to its usage in the Greek spelling...

All of which is, as you earlier pointed out, a tempest in a teapot, or a complication of little import...

I did enjoy romping around in it with you, nonetheless!

Arsenios

Arsenios · Feb 7, 2015

SaulToPaul said:
Have you gone back to Genesis and studied how God dealt with Abraham before circumcision and how God dealt with Abraham after circumcision?

No - Please tell us...

If you have believed 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) and trusted the LORD, having spiritual eyes, you can understand.

This is the very SAME Gospel that the Jews preached, as he goes on to articulate it for the rest of the chapter, and indeed...

Paul wrote regarding the Jews and himself in that same chapter that both he and the Jews in Jerusalem preached the same Gospel:

1Co 15:11
Therefore whether it were I or they,
so we preach,
and so ye believed.

There is but one Gospel of Christ...

Arsenios

Lazy afternoon · Feb 7, 2015

Right Divider;4211934 Saul is also called Paul said:
This change is also interesting in the fact that Peter is never mentioned after Acts 15. (These are facts that anti-MADers either ignore or come up with some incredibly convoluted 'argument' to explain).

God did not want the gentile churches to worship Peter or the Jews or Paul.

1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Mind you, the Christians were being spoken to here, not the idolisers of Paul who rejected the gospel of the Kingdom of God first given to Peter to deliver.

Paul did not do that, but obeyed the gospel of the Kingdom--

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

LA

oatmeal · Feb 7, 2015

oatmeal said:
Galatians 2:7 makes plenty of sense to me for I let scripture explain it.

When you let scripture explain itself, then you have something you can sink your teeth into

Right Divider · Feb 7, 2015

Lazy afternoon said:
God did not want the gentile churches to worship Peter or the Jews or Paul.

Always the straw-man argument from you.

MADists (like you like to think of us) worship the Lord.

Lazy afternoon said:
1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

And later, in the SAME BOOK, Paul says these things:

1Co 4:15-16 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (16) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul did not follow the Lord Jesus Christ the way that Peter and the eleven did. They followed Jesus under the Law. Jesus obeyed the Law and told them to do likewise (Matt 23:1-3).

Paul only knew the RISEN and GLORIED Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ that taught Paul to write that WE are not under the Law.

Lazy afternoon said:
Mind you, the Christians were being spoken to here, not the idolisers of Paul who rejected the gospel of the Kingdom of God first given to Peter to deliver.

Paul did not do that, but obeyed the gospel of the Kingdom--

Why didn't Peter and eleven preach the death of Christ for sin as part of their preaching the kingdom?

Lazy afternoon said:
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

LA

How many times must you be told? Your ears are deaf to any truth given to you.

Act 22:11-13 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. (12) And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, (13) Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

So a DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW makes a statement to Paul BEFORE he receives the MANY REVELATIONS that the Lord Jesus Christ would give him and YOU think this is instruction for us today?

Clueless, you are.

Arsenios · Feb 7, 2015

Right Divider said:

And later, in the SAME BOOK, Paul says these things:

1Co 4:15-16 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (16) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul did not follow the Lord Jesus Christ the way that Peter and the eleven did. They followed Jesus under the Law. Jesus obeyed the Law and told them to do likewise (Matt 23:1-3).

Paul only knew the RISEN and GLORIED Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ that taught Paul to write that WE are not under the Law.

Why didn't Peter and eleven preach the death of Christ for sin as part of their preaching the kingdom?

How many times must you be told? Your ears are deaf to any truth given to you.

Act 22:11-13 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. (12) And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, (13) Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
So a DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW makes a statement to Paul BEFORE he receives the MANY REVELATIONS that the Lord Jesus Christ would give him and YOU think this is instruction for us today?

Click to expand...

Ananias did not merely "make a statement" to Paul...
This understanding trivializes and almost mocks Holy Writ...
He gave seeing to the eyes of Paul, and then he Baptized Paul into Christ our Lord...

Paul was headed for Damasus to seize, imprison, and kill this very same Ananias, yes?
And any other troublemaking Christians he might find there,
as he had already found proto-martyr Stephen...
He was persecuting Christians, and what did the RISEN CHRIST ask him???

"Saul, Saul... Why are you persecuting ME?"

So that these Christians ARE Christ Himself... They are members of His Holy Body,
and against them, the Gates of Hell itself shall not prevail,
even as they did not against Stephen...
This is the Great Mystery of the Church of Christ,
where flesh and blood contend victoriously against the powers and forces of the evil one...
Just as also did Christ Himself when He destroyed the power of death
by His Ascent upon the Cross and died there, and plundered Hades...

Christ ascended in the flesh unto His Father in the Heavens,
and at the same time left His Flesh upon the earth
in His Body, the Church,
where His Incarnation is perpetual and ongoing,
and has been so for 2000 years and still counting...

So that the first century Christian Jews ARE the Body of Christ,
and it is they who healed Paul,
and baptized him into Christ
to become one with them...

And though Paul did indeed receive an abundance of revelations from the Lord,
and the big one on the road to Damascus,
you may have noticed that he did not preach from any of them,
but instead only preached "Christ, and Him Crucified"...

And this means that Paul preached suffering unto death,
and the higher one ascends in Christ,
the greater one's sufferings,
and those called to be Apostles to suffer the most,
"as appointed unto death",
which he entreats ALL the members of the Ekklesia
that they "become as I am"...
eg As one with Apostolic suffering and gifts...

And indeed, Christ told Ananias
that He wished to show Paul
"how much he must suffer for My Name's sake",
remember?

So that to follow Paul, as Paul followed Christ, imitating both,
one must follow them in their suffering,
and it was into this suffering that Ananias baptized Saul,
after restoring to him his sight,
and indeed, giving him sight which he previously did not have,
for as it were scales came forth from out of his eyes,
and as his sight returned,
and he looked up into the beauty of the eyes of Ananias,
as into the Beauty of our Lord Himself...

And yes, we do this even unto this very day and hour...

We who IMITATE Paul, even as Paul IMITATED Christ, in sufferings and sorrows...
And we even name Churches after Paul -
One of which is on Geary St. in San Francisco,
whose Name is: "The JOY OF ALL WHO SORROW."

If you are not suffering,
you are neither imitating nor obeying Christ,
nor are you living a Christian Life,
where the witness is in Blood,
and the Greek word for witness
is martyr...

Arsenios

Grosnick Marowbe · Feb 7, 2015

Right Divider said:
No need for forgiveness. You just over-complicate simple things. That has nothing to do with loving the Truth. It's more like loving confusion.

Yes.

Very astute!

That is absolutely pointless. Paulos is a Greek name.

It is quite well known among anyone that is not a rabid unbeliever that Luke was an excellent historian. In both of his writings, everything regarding his history is extremely detailed and accurate. The fact that he refers to this man as Saul up to Acts chapter 13 and then to Paul after that is very telling to anyone that cares to understand this man.

Once Luke tells us that Saul is also called Paul, he NEVER again even once uses the name Saul again. It is also very telling that Luke had been a close associate of Peter until Acts 16 where ALL of the personal pronouns used to speak of Paul and his associates changes from THEM and THEY to US the WE. This change is also interesting in the fact that Peter is never mentioned after Acts 15. (These are facts that anti-MADers either ignore or come up with some incredibly convoluted 'argument' to explain).

Excellent!

Grosnick Marowbe · Feb 7, 2015

Arsenios said:
Ananias did not merely "make a statement" to Paul... He gave seeing to the eyes of Paul, and then he Baptized Paul into Christ...

Paul was headed for Damasus to seize, imprison, and kill this very same Ananias, yes? And any other troublemaking Christians he might find there, as he had already found proto-martyr Stephen... He was persecuting Christians, and what did the RISEN CHRIST ask him???

"Saul, Saul... Why are you persecuting ME?"

So that these Christians ARE Christ Himself... They are members of His Holy Body, and against them, the Gates of Hell itself shall not prevail, even as they did not against Stephen... This is the Great Mystery of the Church of Christ, where flesh and blood contend victoriously against the powers and forces of the evil one... Just as also did Christ Himself when He destroyed the power of death by His Ascent upon the Cross and died there, and plundered Hades...

Christ ascended in the flesh unto His Father in the Heavens, and at the same time left His Flesh upon the earth in His Body, the Church, where His Incarnation is perpetual and ongoing, and has been so for 2000 years and still counting...

So that the first century Christian Jews ARE the Body of Christ, and it is they who healed Paul, and baptized him into Christ to become one with them... And though Paul did indeed receive an abundance of revelations from the Lord, and the big one on the road to Damascus, you may have noticed that he did not preach from any of them, but instead only preached "Christ, and Him Crucified"... And this means that Paul preached suffering unto death, and the higher one ascends in Christ, the greater one's sufferings, and those called to be Apostles to suffer the most, "as appointed unto death", which he entreats ALL the members of the Ekklesia that they "become as I am"... eg As one with Apostolic suffering and gifts...

And indeed, Christ told Ananias that He wished to show Paul "how much he must suffer for My Name's sake", remember?

So that to follow Paul, as Paul followed Christ, imitating both, one must follow them in their suffering, and it was this suffering that was what Ananias baptized Saul into, after restoring to him his sight, and indeed, giving him sight which he previously did not have, for as it were scales came forth from out of his eyes, as his sight returned, and he looked up into the beauty of the eyes of Ananias, as into the Beauty of our Lord Himself...

And yes, we do this even unto this very day and hour...

We who IMITATE Paul, even as Paul IMITATED Christ, is sufferings and sorrows... And we even name Churches after Paul - One of which is on Geary St. in San Francisco, whose Name is: "The JOY OF ALL WHO SORROW."

If you are not suffering, you are neither imitating nor obeying Christ, nor are you living a Christian Live, where the witness is in Blood, and the Greek word for witness is martyr...

Arsenios

Those who Saul (Paul) was 'persecuting' were those under the,
"Kingdom Message!" It was Paul, who the "Risen Christ" 'chose'
to spread the "Grace Message" to the gentiles! There were two
distinct messages being taught at that, "TIME!"

Grosnick Marowbe · Feb 7, 2015

Today we ALL abide (Jew and gentile alike) with, "Paul's Gospel!" Which is
in all actuality; Christ's Gospel!! Why? Because, you cannot differentiate
between the two!

Right Divider · Feb 7, 2015

Arsenios said:
Ananias did not merely "make a statement" to Paul...
This understanding trivializes and almost mocks Holy Writ...
He gave seeing to the eyes of Paul, and then he Baptized Paul into Christ our Lord...

No, I revere the Word of God and don't mythologize it like you do.

Arsenios said:
Paul was headed for Damasus to seize, imprison, and kill this very same Ananias, yes?
And any other troublemaking Christians he might find there,
as he had already found proto-martyr Stephen...
He was persecuting Christians, and what did the RISEN CHRIST ask him???

"Saul, Saul... Why are you persecuting ME?"

The people that he was persecuting were not called Christians then, they were called Jews (or Isrealites).

You and many others think that Christ came to bring some new teaching to the world, but every single thing that Jesus Christ taught came from the Old Covenant LAW AND PROPHETS. Every single thing. He certainly explained it even more clearly and completely, but it was ALL RECORDED in the BOOKS of the Bible (Genesis -- Malachi).

Arsenios said:
So that these Christians ARE Christ Himself... They are members of His Holy Body,
and against them, the Gates of Hell itself shall not prevail,
even as they did not against Stephen...
This is the Great Mystery of the Church of Christ,
where flesh and blood contend victoriously against the powers and forces of the evil one...
Just as also did Christ Himself when He destroyed the power of death
by His Ascent upon the Cross and died there, and plundered Hades...

Ascent upon the Cross? You are just mashing all kinds of ideas into a mess.

Most of what you describe there were not known until our Lord gave it TO PAUL to preach it and WRITE about it.

Arsenios said:
Christ ascended in the flesh unto His Father in the Heavens,
and at the same time left His Flesh upon the earth
in His Body, the Church,
where His Incarnation is perpetual and ongoing,
and has been so for 2000 years and still counting...

Yes, I know. I'm a member of HIS BODY.

Arsenios said:
So that the first century Christian Jews ARE the Body of Christ,
and it is they who healed Paul,
and baptized him into Christ
to become one with them...

And though Paul did indeed receive an abundance of revelations from the Lord,
and the big one on the road to Damascus,
you may have noticed that he did not preach from any of them,
but instead only preached "Christ, and Him Crucified"...

That makes NO sense whatsoever. Paul did NOT keep all of the revelations from the Lord a secret so that he ONLY preached "Christ, and Him Crucified". You simply ignore context like far too many. Note the CONTEXT:

1Co 2:1-2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. (2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

If you would pay attention to DETAILS, you might actually understand what the Bible teaches.

Arsenios said:
And this means that Paul preached suffering unto death,
and the higher one ascends in Christ,
the greater one's sufferings,
and those called to be Apostles to suffer the most,
"as appointed unto death",
which he entreats ALL the members of the Ekklesia
that they "become as I am"...
eg As one with Apostolic suffering and gifts...

And indeed, Christ told Ananias
that He wished to show Paul
"how much he must suffer for My Name's sake",
remember?

So that to follow Paul, as Paul followed Christ, imitating both,
one must follow them in their suffering,
and it was into this suffering that Ananias baptized Saul,
after restoring to him his sight,
and indeed, giving him sight which he previously did not have,
for as it were scales came forth from out of his eyes,
and as his sight returned,
and he looked up into the beauty of the eyes of Ananias,
as into the Beauty of our Lord Himself...

And yes, we do this even unto this very day and hour...

We who IMITATE Paul, even as Paul IMITATED Christ, in sufferings and sorrows...
And we even name Churches after Paul -
One of which is on Geary St. in San Francisco,
whose Name is: "The JOY OF ALL WHO SORROW."

If you are not suffering,
you are neither imitating nor obeying Christ,
nor are you living a Christian Life,
where the witness is in Blood,
and the Greek word for witness
is martyr...

Arsenios

Indeed, Arsenios suffers more than us all. You are the greatest Christian that has ever lived.

Lazy afternoon · Feb 7, 2015

Right Divider said:
Always the straw-man argument from you.

MADists (like you like to think of us) worship the Lord.

And later, in the SAME BOOK, Paul says these things:

1Co 4:15-16 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (16) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul did not follow the Lord Jesus Christ the way that Peter and the eleven did. They followed Jesus under the Law. Jesus obeyed the Law and told them to do likewise (Matt 23:1-3).

Paul only knew the RISEN and GLORIED Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ that taught Paul to write that WE are not under the Law.

Why didn't Peter and eleven preach the death of Christ for sin as part of their preaching the kingdom?

How many times must you be told? Your ears are deaf to any truth given to you.

Act 22:11-13 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. (12) And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, (13) Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
So a DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW makes a statement to Paul BEFORE he receives the MANY REVELATIONS that the Lord Jesus Christ would give him and YOU think this is instruction for us today?

Clueless, you are.

The 120 and the 3000 on the day of Pentecost were not saved by the Spirit under the law.

Paul made the point very clear--

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

What you are saying is that Christ after His resurrection, was a minister of the law.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

LA

Right Divider · Feb 7, 2015

Lazy afternoon said:
The 120 and the 3000 on the day of Pentecost were not saved by the Spirit under the law.

Paul made the point very clear--

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

What you are saying is that Christ after His resurrection, was a minister of the law.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

LA

LA the Clueless!

Arsenios · Feb 8, 2015

Right Divider said:
The people that he was persecuting were not called Christians then, they were called Jews (or Isrealites).

The Risen Christ called them "Me..."

Act_9:4 "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me?"

You and many others think that Christ came to bring some new teaching to the world,

I can only speak for myself and the Orthodox Faith...
Christ came into the world to bring God into human flesh,
thereby elevating human nature from its bondage to death...

And this He did... And ONLY in Himself... Which is why we have to be baptized INTO Christ... That is where Salvation exists...

but every single thing that Jesus Christ taught came from the Old Covenant LAW AND PROPHETS. Every single thing. He certainly explained it even more clearly and completely, but it was ALL RECORDED in the BOOKS of the Bible (Genesis -- Malachi).

He indeed fulfilled ALL the Law and the Prophets... That is why we are no longer obedient to the Law, but are instead obedient to Christ Who IS the Fulfillment of the Law...

You are right, you will find the Services of the Church Calendar closely linked to those of the Jews... Pascha, for instance, the Passover Lamb, is celebrated by the Jews to commemorate their release from the bondage of Egypt... Christ Himself is OUR Pascha, and our Feast celebrates our release IN Christ from the bondage of Death... It goes on and on...

Ascent upon the Cross? You are just mashing all kinds of ideas into a mess.

Yes, the suffering of the Passion of Christ was voluntary on His part...

Paul did NOT keep all of the revelations from the Lord a secret so that he ONLY preached "Christ, and Him Crucified".

The citation you quote states EXACTLY THAT... Paul did not preach from the vision of the Risen Christ, nor from his great revelations... He did "know a man..." years ago "who ascended into the third heaven..." but his only account states that he saw things there of which it is unlawful to speak... That is not "Preaching from the Vision", you see...

Note the CONTEXT:
1Co 2:1-2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. (2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
If you would pay attention to DETAILS, you might actually understand what the Bible teaches.

OK - The first sentence states that he did NOT come declaring the "testimony of God" as you are falsely asserting that he did, giving us a NEW REVELATION from the RISEN CHRIST... THAT did NOT happen... Says so in your own quote... No great speech, no great wisdom, no testimony from God...

And he then goes on to say: "I determined to not know any thing among you exceot Jesus Christ, and Him crucified..d.

You have refuted yourself...

But only if you can actually read the two English sentences you quoted from Scripture above...

Arsenios

Lazy afternoon · Feb 8, 2015

Arsenios said:
I can only speak for myself and the Orthodox Faith...
Christ came into the world to bring God into human flesh,
thereby elevating human nature from its bondage to death...

And this He did... And ONLY in Himself... Which is why we have to be baptized INTO Christ... That is where Salvation exists...

Arsenios

I like that.

LA

Heterodoxical · Feb 8, 2015

The word justified means, "balanced".

Just seeing the word Justified doesn't mean it addresses your soul. You can justify your ledger or your lumber.

Paul discusses the soul's justification.

James discusses justifying faith.

They aren't even the same conversation. They have the same word. It's ridiculous the way people go at these things.

ECT Does the book of James contradict Paul's epistles? How?

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