California lawmakers seek to end 'personal belief' vaccine exemptions

Jonahdog · Feb 6, 2015

elohiym said:
My kid getting autism versus getting laid up for two weeks. Seems like an easy choice. The risk clearly outweighs the benefit.

Please provide citations to the medical literature for this claim.

Should the govt mandate car seats for kids? According to Rand Paul---sounds like a freedom and liberty issue to me. Getting a kid in and out of a car seat takes too long. Although if your kid dies in a car crash it may not be quite like spreading a disease to others.

Other than that---you are mistaken. These diseases kill people. Wakefield, the vaccines cause autism guy was a total fraud. He made his data up. But cuties like Jenny McCarthy are on his side so must be ok

rexlunae · Feb 6, 2015

elohiym said:
You appear to be making some baseless claims on this thread, Rex.

Are you positive that the MMR has never caused ASD in a single person?

Yes. I have confidence in the process that has repeatedly studied that avenue looking for evidence of a link, and repeatedly found none.

elohiym said:
What knowledge do you have of those specific cases I referenced?

Absolutely none. What knowledge do you have of them?

Jonahdog · Feb 6, 2015

genuineoriginal said:
Isn't it amazing how modern vaccinations don't provide immunity any more?

Pretty bold statement. I'll wait for your evidence.

rexlunae · Feb 6, 2015

genuineoriginal said:
Isn't it amazing how modern vaccinations don't provide immunity any more?

Vaccinations have never provided 100% immunity to 100% of people who have received them. They do generally reduce the likelihood that you will catch a disease, however.

genuineoriginal said:
However, they do provide revenue for the pharmaceutical companies that write the laws mandating vaccinations.

As someone once told Woodward and Bernstein, "follow the money".

And food, man. Food. Think how much money there is in that. If people just realized that we don't need to eat it, think how much less money would be made...

Follow the money.

genuineoriginal · Feb 6, 2015

rexlunae said:
And food, man. Food. Think how much money there is in that. If people just realized that we don't need to eat it, think how much less money would be made...

Follow the money.

Monsanto and the GMO connection would be the topic for another thread.

genuineoriginal · Feb 6, 2015

Jonahdog said:
Pretty bold statement. I'll wait for your evidence.

It is apparantly a well know fact, as this post shows:

rexlunae said:
Vaccinations have never provided 100% immunity to 100% of people who have received them. They do generally reduce the likelihood that you will catch a disease, however.

elohiym · Feb 6, 2015

Jonahdog said:
Please provide citations to the medical literature for this claim.

In the post above the comment I made a vaccinated poster claimed she contracted measles because her vaccine wore off (she was also a risk to others then, but unaware). If there is a chance for any severe side effect, whether alleged autism or the several diseases I suffer because of vaccine injury or ANY possible severe side effects, it is obviously not worth risking to avoid two weeks of being sick and having pocks.

Jonahdog said:
Should the govt mandate car seats for kids? According to Rand Paul---sounds like a freedom and liberty issue to me. Getting a kid in and out of a car seat takes too long. Although if your kid dies in a car crash it may not be quite like spreading a disease to others.

A car seat versus injecting substances with known severe side effects into your children's body. You really need to think about that? You see MMR like Ebola or something?

Jonahdog said:
Other than that---you are mistaken.

About what specifically?

Jonahdog said:
These diseases kill people.

Some people think a Big Mac will kill me. Please be specific: what diseases will kill me if I don't get vaccinated against those diseases?

Jonahdog said:
Wakefield, the vaccines cause autism guy was a total fraud. He made his data up. But cuties like Jenny McCarthy are on his side so must be ok

What specifically are you claiming that Wakefield made up?

elohiym · Feb 6, 2015

rexlunae said:
Yes. I have confidence in the process that has repeatedly studied that avenue looking for evidence of a link, and repeatedly found none.

I don't think you've looked any closer at that research than you did at the court cases I referenced. Off the top of my head I can tell you there are two studies that link aluminum adjuvants in vaccines to neurological damage in mice.

rexlunae said:
Absolutely none. What knowledge do you have of them?

I know the judges heard testimony from expert witnesses and reached the conclusion the plaintiffs should be compensated for their claim that the MMR vaccine damaged their child.

Are you suggesting a conspiracy or incompetence of the judges and expert witnesses, and while you admittedly have absolutely no knowledge of the cases?

rexlunae · Feb 6, 2015

genuineoriginal said:
Monsanto and the GMO connection would be the topic for another thread.

The point is, the only treatment for anything that is free is lying alone in bed. You think the vitamins and other unproven nonsense anti-vaxxers are pushing is free? Make a serious argument why don't you?

elohiym · Feb 6, 2015

rexlunae said:
The point is, the only treatment for anything that is free is lying alone in bed. You think the vitamins and other unproven nonsense anti-vaxxers are pushing is free? Make a serious argument why don't you?

YOU are the one coming across as irrational, Rex (to me).

Anti-vaxxers? Unproven nonsense?

Make a serious argument, why don't you?

rexlunae · Feb 6, 2015

elohiym said:
YOU are the one coming across as irrational, Rex (to me).

I don't doubt that I am. To you.

elohiym said:
Anti-vaxxers? Unproven nonsense?

Yes.

elohiym said:
Make a serious argument, why don't you?

It's not really my argument to make. I'm not versed in medicine or epidemiology. I listen to the people who study this stuff full-time. The fact that you rest on court cases instead of medicine doesn't help your case, in my eyes.

rexlunae · Feb 6, 2015

genuineoriginal said:
It is apparantly a well know fact, as this post shows:

No. Read a little closer. Vaccines have never provided 100% immunity. That is not how they work. Misrepresenting what I've said sure doesn't help your case.

Would you take a treatment that lowers your risk of getting a horrible communicable disease by 95% with very little chance of harm? Apparently for many people the answer is 'no'.

Angel4Truth · Feb 6, 2015

rexlunae said:
No. Read a little closer. Vaccines have never provided 100% immunity. That is not how they work. Misrepresenting what I've said sure doesn't help your case.

Would you take a treatment that lowers your risk of getting a horrible communicable disease by 95% with very little chance of harm? Apparently for many people the answer is 'no'.

Depends on how long its been out. These days they pass things through too quickly, watch the ads on tv sometime of lawyers begging people to call them because of numerous lawsuits about this medical device harming people, or this pill, etc...

rexlunae · Feb 6, 2015

elohiym said:
I don't think you've looked any closer at that research than you did at the court cases I referenced.

As I said, I have confidence in the process. That's not to say that I've read all the studies and made a determination of all the evidence for myself, because I just can't do that. I've read a few of the studies about vaccines, but the fact is, I'm not qualified to make a final determination about anything in medicine. What I am more comfortable doing is evaluating which side is relying on the scientific process, and which is relying on less reliable forms of reasoning and argument, and that is currently quite lopsided.

elohiym said:
Off the top of my head I can tell you there are two studies that link aluminum adjuvants in vaccines to neurological damage in mice.

I'm sure there are. And yet...
http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine...cine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum.html

Hard to see how a concentration of an element lower than a lot of background sources could be dangerous.

elohiym said:
I know the judges heard testimony from expert witnesses and reached the conclusion the plaintiffs should be compensated for their claim that the MMR vaccine damaged their child.

And in so doing, the judges became qualified epidemiologists?

elohiym said:
Are you suggesting a conspiracy or incompetence of the judges and expert witnesses, and while you admittedly have absolutely no knowledge of the cases?

No. I'm saying that I have more faith in science than I do in the courts. I consider it a travesty of justice that the courts have reached a verdict not in keeping with the best available research, and it simply isn't a court's business or competence to reach their own independent scientific conclusion. They should be relying on the conclusions of the medical establishment.

genuineoriginal · Feb 6, 2015

rexlunae said:
No. Read a little closer. Vaccines have never provided 100% immunity. That is not how they work.

Yes, that shows that it is a well known fact.

rexlunae said:
Misrepresenting what I've said sure doesn't help your case.

I provided your quote without alteration.

rexlunae said:
Would you take a treatment that lowers your risk of getting a horrible communicable disease by 95% with very little chance of harm? Apparently for many people the answer is 'no'.

Neurological disorders are the most painful and most debilitating disorders known to man and almost all of them are classified as auto-immune disorders.
The percent of population that have severe neurological disorders in countries with vaccinations has increased while the percent of the population in countries without vaccinations has not increased.
There may be other factors not related to vaccinations that are responsible for the increase in neurological disorders, such as pollution and modified food.

Until a definite cause for the increase in neurological disorders is found, there will be many people who will justly or unjustly vilify vaccinations, since vaccinations inject unknown chemicals directly into the bloodstream and are designed to trigger the body's immune system in ways and frequencies not normally found.

Are vaccinations the cause of auto-immune neurological disorders?

rexlunae · Feb 6, 2015

genuineoriginal said:
Monsanto and the GMO connection would be the topic for another thread.

Indeed, but the larger point is that's it's too easy to say "follow the money", and it's plain hypocritical to say it and then fail to apply the same reasoning to your own side. Of course there's some money in vaccines, although it's one of the less lucrative aspects of medicine. There's money to be made in nearly everything, and certainly the groups telling you that vitamins and sanitation will save you from every malady stand to gain as well.

genuineoriginal · Feb 6, 2015

rexlunae said:
They should be relying on the conclusions of the medical establishment.

Since there is a great financial incentive for the medical establishment to create an endless supply of people with chronic diseases that require frequent appointments and expensive medications, I am sure you can see where some people would believe that the medical establishment might be biased?

genuineoriginal · Feb 6, 2015

rexlunae said:
Indeed, but the larger point is that's it's too easy to say "follow the money", and it's plain hypocritical to say it and then fail to apply the same reasoning to your own side. Of course there's some money in vaccines, although it's one of the less lucrative aspects of medicine. There's money to be made in nearly everything, and certainly the groups telling you that vitamins and sanitation will save you from every malady stand to gain as well.

You are comparing pennies to thousand dollar bills.
It is not a very fair comparison.

elohiym · Feb 6, 2015

elohiym said:
YOU are the one coming across as irrational, Rex (to me).

rexlunae said:

I don't doubt that I am. To you.

Click to expand...

I have seven perfectly healthy children that you think should be immunized with unnamed vaccines. Don't you think you should come across as rational if you want to convince me I should vaccinate my children, or convince me the government should mandate I vaccinate my children for any reason?

elohyim said:
Anti-vaxxers? Unproven nonsense?

rexlunae said:

Yes.

Click to expand...

Then you are an irrational, rabid pro-vaxxer, someone willing to sacrifice my children to a procedure he doesn't really understand, but does so based on his faith in a process he believes is sound while at the same time irrationally condemns the judicial process.

rexlunae said:
It's not really my argument to make. I'm not versed in medicine or epidemiology. I listen to the people who study this stuff full-time. The fact that you rest on court cases instead of medicine doesn't help your case, in my eyes.

You don't trust in the judicial process. That's not my problem.

You want me to trust in a process I can see is clearly flawed, disregard the evidence that suggests vaccines can be dangerous and unnecessary and ignore the judicial process of two nations as if they are engaged in some conspiracy to defame vaccines? :ha:

elohiym · Feb 7, 2015

Angel4Truth said:
Depends on how long its been out. These days they pass things through too quickly...

AND they seem to pass things through incompetently. I was shocked when I discovered the placebo in the Gardasil clinical trials wasn't a placebo at all, just called a placebo; the alleged placebo in the clinical trials contained the aluminum adjuvant. Aluminum is an antigen! (And they call themselves scientists. :sigh

Angel4Truth said:
...watch the ads on tv sometime of lawyers begging people to call them because of numerous lawsuits about this medical device harming people, or this pill, etc...

Yup. "Here's your sign."

California lawmakers seek to end 'personal belief' vaccine exemptions

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