Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

voltaire said:

what John is saying in verse 9. he is clearly talking about salvation because he says Christ will forgive all our sins.

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If we confess our sins this has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

It clealy says IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS. How much clearer can it be. This is not for unbelievers, and is not for salvation. Notice the word "if", this means you may do it, or you may not do it.

Salvation is "IF" you believe, not "IF" you confess.

tetelestai said:

Nobody would tell an unbeliever to confess their sins. This would make no sense.

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You are misunderstanding what John is saying.

Confess - means to say the same as; to agree.

Unbelievers must agree that they have sin. Paul clearly explains in Romans 7 how the Law revealed that he had sin, and it made him aware of his wretchedness.

Without the knowledge that we have sin, why would we see the need of a Savior, and why would the Holy Spirit convict the world of sin?

Door said:

You are misunderstanding what John is saying.

Confess - means to say the same as; to agree.

Unbelievers must agree that they have sin. Paul clearly explains in Romans 7 how the Law revealed that he had sin, and it made him aware of his wretchedness.

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Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is the only system of perception that is totally devoid of any human merit. Only the object has merit, and in salvation the object of faith is Jesus Christ. No one has ever been saved by asking Jesus to come into his or her heart, by confessing sins, by feeling sorry, acknowledging Christ publicly, or agreeing that they have sin.

How much faith does it take to be saved? It takes just a little bit more than no faith at all.

The perfect salvation work of Christ on the cross (expiation), excludes anything else being added to faith. No works of any kind are allowed.

Ephesians 2:8-9, For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that (salvation) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

tetelestai said:

Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is the only system of perception that is totally devoid of any human merit. Only the object has merit, and in salvation the object of faith is Jesus Christ. No one has ever been saved by asking Jesus to come into his or her heart, by confessing sins, by feeling sorry, acknowledging Christ publicly, or agreeing that they have sin.

How much faith does it take to be saved? It takes just a little bit more than no faith at all.

The perfect salvation work of Christ on the cross (expiation), excludes anything else being added to faith. No works of any kind are allowed.

Ephesians 2:8-9, For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that (salvation) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

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You and Jerry are automatons. You have no sense at all in understanding anything anyone says. You just blurt out unrelated rhetoric without any thought to what was said.

1 John 1:9 has NOTHING to do with how someone is saved. No one is saved by having their sins forgiven, we are saved by receiving His life (the very life John is proclaiming). It is Jesus alone who is faithful and just to cleanse us from all righteousness, but YOU CANNOT deny that people have sin that needs to be cleansed. NO ONE is forgiven by confessing sin. Only being in Him, can we have forgiveness of sin. YOU and Jerry, have to claim that someone is NOT IN HIM, if they need forgiveness.

" For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

If YOU need more forgiveness as a believer, then you are not in Him. It is impossible to have sin, and be in Jesus. IMPOSSIBLE!!

"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace."

Door said:

1 John 1:9 has NOTHING to do with how someone is saved.

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That is correct.

This is simple. Just explain who the "we" are in "If we confess our sins"

Even if you want to change the word "confess" to the word "agree", still explain who "we" are.

Why should we leave the judgement of eternal destiny up to God. are you saying that God doesnt care if we can know as sure as the sun rising that when we die we will go to heaven? all he cares about is that we follow Godly principles and only teach that to others? are we supposed to leave those immoral christians in the lurch concerning their eternal destiny? is the goal to leave them in a state of uncertainty so that they will live moral lives in hopes of not landing in hell? another point you mentioned-- is how close we are to God directly proportional to the moral behavior of our life? that would make some atheists closer to God than many christians.

tetelestai said:

That is correct.

This is simple. Just explain who the "we" are in "If we confess our sins"

Even if you want to change the word "confess" to the word "agree", still explain who "we" are.

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Anyone who would say that that they have no sin. If John is saying he has no sin, then it would be John. If the Gnostics say they have no sin, then it would be the Gnostics. If you say that you have no sin, then it would be you. EVERYONE that has ever existed must come to the realization that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. John is making a blanket statement about sin, just as he did about those in darkness. He is comparing believers with unbelievers, and if John claims that he has not sinned, then he is not to be counted as a believer.

Believers are never told that they have sin. Believers cannot have sin, or they are dead. Believers are free from sin. God no longer takes into account any sin of anyone that is in Christ.

Door said:

No one is saved by having their sins forgiven,

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Door said:

Unbelievers must agree that they have sin

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Flip Flop Farm

tetelestai said:

Door said:


Door said:


Flip Flop Farm

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You are a flipping moron.

NO ONE IS SAVED BY HAVING THEIR SINS FORGIVEN!!!!

That is not a "flip-flop", just evidence that you are stupid.

Unbelievers must agree that they have sin

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This in NO WAY says anything about doing so to be SAVED!!

You have no argument, so you resort to lies and deception.

You can go to hell.

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me"

tetelestai claims that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is a farce. No one is supposed to know that they are sinners, until after they are believers. What Jesus said above is a lie, according to tetelestai

Door said:

This in NO WAY says anything about doing so to be SAVED!!

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Then why do you say that they "MUST" do it?

tetelestai said:

Then why do you say that they "MUST" do it?

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Because John says that if you say you have no sin, you are a liar.

EVERYONE must know that they have sin. That is why the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. EVERYONE must know that they are unrighteous, and that God alone is the one who makes them righteous.

"I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God for salvation, for in it the righteousness of God is revealed."

Where do you learn that God is right and you are not?

Are we saved by the Law? No!! Does it lead us to Christ? YES!!!

Get it?

Door said:

Believers are never told that they have sin. Believers cannot have sin, or they are dead. Believers are free from sin. God no longer takes into account any sin of anyone that is in Christ.

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This is a legal truth, not an ontological reality.

Glorification alone will work this ontological change.

Nang

Door said:

Because John says that if you say you have no sin, you are a liar.

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That is correct. The only problem is John is talking to believers, you said unbelievers "must" agree they have sin.

I think one of the problems is that you seem to go back and forth on who John is talking to. Since this one on one started, here is what you have said:

The audience, I believe, is primarily Gentile believers

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then you said:

I concede the point that John is addressing Gentile believers

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then you said:

Hint: It is not the Christians he is writing to

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then you said:

The letter is written to believers, and much of it is written about unbelievers

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Then you said:

He is comparing believers with unbelievers

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From a Christian point of view this is a good thing. As believers grow, they come to find they are misguided in certain doctrines, and learn new things, and find that what they once thought of as truth, is not truth.

However, from a one on one point of view, it shows that you are much unprepared, and lack knowledge in what you are debating.

Lets look at verses 6 thu 10:
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

“we” and “us” can only mean one group of people. Who are these “we” & “us” that John is referring to?

tetelestai said:

That is correct. The only problem is John is talking to believers, you said unbelievers "must" agree they have sin.

I think one of the problems is that you seem to go back and forth on who John is talking to. Since this one on one started, here is what you have said:


then you said:


then you said:


then you said:



Then you said:

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Nothing I said above contradicts one another. You simply do not understand what I said, and obviously what John has said.

1. It is true that the audience is primarily Gentile believers.

2. His message is to the Gentile Believers, (even though others will hear it).

3. You have already had this explained to you, and everyone here knows it. So all you are doing is purposely lying and slandering, which proves that YOU a worthless piece of trash. I said that it would have been better stated to say "referring to" or "written about" that to say "written to". It was a grammatical error, and YOU know it.

4. Absolutely true!!!

5. Absolutely true!!!

Door said:

You have already had this explained to you, and everyone here knows it.

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Please answer this question:

Lets look at verses 6 thu 10:
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

“we” and “us” can only mean one group of people. Who are these “we” & “us” that John is referring to?

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If "we" say that Jesus is not the Way, "we" lie, and do not the truth.

If "we" say that Jesus did not come in the flesh, we are deceived, and the truth is not in "us".

This tells the Gentile believers that they should not listen to anyone who says these things, whether is be John, or the Gnostics.

Nang said:

This is a legal truth, not an ontological reality.

Glorification alone will work this ontological change.

Nang

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I disagree. It is already become an ontological reality.

Door said:

If "we" say that Jesus is not the Way, "we" lie, and do not the truth.

If "we" say that Jesus did not come in the flesh, we are deceived, and the truth is not in "us".

This tells the Gentile believers that they should not listen to anyone who says these things, whether is be John, or the Gnostics.

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This is like asking a politician or a lawyer a question. :bang:

So basically you are saying “we” or “us” means anyone?

Are you able to give either “Believers” or “Unbelievers” as your answer?