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Thread: How is Paul's message different?

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I think we might see the word prophecy differently. I see prophecy as a foretelling of future events that are not dependent on man and will happen just as God has said.
    Prophecy simply means "a prediction."

    Prophesy simple means "to say that (a specified thing) will happen in the future."

    Trying to redefine the terms to suit your argument doesn't work.

    For example, Daniel's prophecy about God setting up the kingdom in Daniel 2. He said in the time of the fourth kingdom that God would set up a kingdom.
    Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people.

    We know that the fourth kingdom was the Roman empire. Jesus did appeared during the time of the Roman empire and said the kingdom was at hand. So the question is did God set up the kingdom during Jesus first visit making Daniels prophecy true?
    No. Daniel's prophecy failed because Israel as a nation rejected God, and God was no longer able to work with them, and so God moved to working with the rest of the world in Acts 9.

    Remember Jeremiah 18?

    "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. - Jeremiah 18:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

    This is EXACTLY what happened with Israel in Acts 1-8. God promised them a kingdom, but they did evil in His sight, killing his representatives to them. They even killed His Son. So he repented of the good which He said He would benefit her. And so His plans to make her prosperous were put on hold, until the fullness of the gentiles is reached.

    God's prophecy must come true or it isn't from God.
    So, either Daniel's words were not from God (because they didn't come true), if what you say is true.

    OR

    Prophecy can sometimes fail, even if it's from God, which is what the Bible says throughout.

    So who should I believe, you, or the Bible? I'm gonna go with what the Bible says every time.

    The passage you quote below to support this claim doesn't say "it must come true or it isn't from God." It says "IF it DOESN'T come true, then it's not from God." There's a difference. If what you said is true, then what Jonah said wasn't from God, because it didn't come true.

    Deut. 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

    God does not want anyone to perish. If God gives the wicked a warning while they are still living and able to repent, I don't see that as prophecy but a warning because the outcome could be either/or.
    Redefining the word to fit your beliefs doesn't work.

    God is all knowing. If God's prophecy
    Again, prophecy simply means "a prediction."

    Prophesy simple means "to say that (a specified thing) will happen in the future."

    God's warning that He gave to Jonah to relay to Nineveh was prophecy. Did you notice that there were no conditions given to Jonah on how they could change God's mind.

    Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying,“Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.”So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent.And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” - Jonah 3:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

    Jonah was a prophet.
    He prophesied to Nineveh that they would be destroyed. No exceptions.

    Nineveh repented, and God decided not to destroy them, because God is a living God, and is not subject to His prophecies. He would much rather not destroy a repentant nation than make sure His prophecy doesn't fail.

    doesn't come true, how can we trust anything he tells us?
    First of all, your argument, "how can we trust God if His prophecies fail," is a nonstarter.

    We can trust God because He is righteous, just, and love, and doubting Him because of a failed prediction shows a lack of faith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    If I understand you correctly, this could very well be the root of our disagreement.

    So to be sure, could you please explain what law Jews and Christians are under.
    No.

    This is not the root of our disagreement and I will not get this deep into the weeds on a doctrinal dispute.

    Suffice it to say that Paul got it right in Galatians 3:21. That's as close to a direct answer as I'm willing to give you.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Could you please be a little more detailed. Under what covenant/law did those on Pentecost receive the forgiveness of sins?
    There is no way to be more specific.

    The gospel was to the Jew FIRST. Could you please point out in scripture where the Jews heard the gospel first. Why is the gospel to the Jew first?
    They heard Paul's gospel first from Paul and Barnabas.

    Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

    It was "necessary that the word of God should be spoken to [the Jews] first" because, as Paul explains elsewhere, the oracles of God (i.e. the scriptures) were given to the Jews and the Messiah was a Jew as was Paul himself. The Grace Gospel was born out of the Jewish faith and so, of course, it would be presented to the Jew first. It's only natural and logical.

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    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Mere opinion is no defense for the truth, everyone has one.
    You need to get a refund on the ones your using. Why not trade them in on a healthy supply of common sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Do you think God cares about your false rep power?
    You ought to care. After all, it makes your opinions look extremely unpopular and unacceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    You ought to care. After all, it makes your opinions look extremely unpopular and unacceptable.
    Which, indeed, they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    You ought to care. After all, it makes your opinions look extremely unpopular and unacceptable.
    Good grief, who is whitestone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Prophecy simply means "a prediction."

    Prophesy simple means "to say that (a specified thing) will happen in the future."

    Trying to redefine the terms to suit your argument doesn't work.



    No. Daniel's prophecy failed because Israel as a nation rejected God, and God was no longer able to work with them, and so God moved to working with the rest of the world in Acts 9.

    Remember Jeremiah 18?

    "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. - Jeremiah 18:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

    This is EXACTLY what happened with Israel in Acts 1-8. God promised them a kingdom, but they did evil in His sight, killing his representatives to them. They even killed His Son. So he repented of the good which He said He would benefit her. And so His plans to make her prosperous were put on hold, until the fullness of the gentiles is reached.



    So, either Daniel's words were not from God (because they didn't come true), if what you say is true.

    OR

    Prophecy can sometimes fail, even if it's from God, which is what the Bible says throughout.

    So who should I believe, you, or the Bible? I'm gonna go with what the Bible says every time.

    The passage you quote below to support this claim doesn't say "it must come true or it isn't from God." It says "IF it DOESN'T come true, then it's not from God." There's a difference. If what you said is true, then what Jonah said wasn't from God, because it didn't come true.



    Redefining the word to fit your beliefs doesn't work.



    Again, prophecy simply means "a prediction."

    Prophesy simple means "to say that (a specified thing) will happen in the future."

    God's warning that He gave to Jonah to relay to Nineveh was prophecy. Did you notice that there were no conditions given to Jonah on how they could change God's mind.

    Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying,“Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.”So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent.And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” - Jonah 3:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

    Jonah was a prophet.
    He prophesied to Nineveh that they would be destroyed. No exceptions.

    Nineveh repented, and God decided not to destroy them, because God is a living God, and is not subject to His prophecies. He would much rather not destroy a repentant nation than make sure His prophecy doesn't fail.



    First of all, your argument, "how can we trust God if His prophecies fail," is a nonstarter.

    We can trust God because He is righteous, just, and love, and doubting Him because of a failed prediction shows a lack of faith.
    Excellent post!

    Would you agree, however, that it isn't really that God's prophecies occasionally "fail" but rather that many of God's prophesies are conditional and that they were never intended to be fulfilled unless the conditions were and continued to be met.

    That's basically the point that God makes in Jeremiah 18, right? If God speaks concerning a nation but that nation repents (for the better or worse) then God will repent as well and not do what He said. It isn't a failure of Daniel's prophesy if Israel rejects the King that God was in the process of trying to give them.

    Perhaps that's a fine point but the distinction might help some see the point more clearly. We do not believe that God makes errors but rather that He is not a slave to His promises if the intended benefactor does evil in His sight or if the enemy that He sets out to destroy repents.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Excellent post!

    Would you agree, however, that it isn't really that God's prophecies occasionally "fail" but rather that many of God's prophesies are conditional and that they were never intended to be fulfilled unless the conditions were and continued to be met.

    That's basically the point that God makes in Jeremiah 18, right? If God speaks concerning a nation but that nation repents (for the better or worse) then God will repent as well and not do what He said. It isn't a failure of Daniel's prophesy if Israel rejects the King that God was in the process of trying to give them.

    Perhaps that's a fine point but the distinction might help some see the point more clearly. We do not believe that God makes errors but rather that He is not a slave to His promises if the intended benefactor does evil in His sight or if the enemy that He sets out to destroy repents.

    Resting in Him,
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    Absolutely!
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I understand Jeremiah 18, I just don't agree with MAD's application of it. I believe they overlook a detail.

    4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

    Through Jesus's sacrifice he created a new body and new man out of Jew and Gentile, another new vessel.
    It is you who are missing it. The portion you highlight defeats YOUR point, not ours.

    The fact that God had to REWORK the vessel means that His first attempt failed, does it not?

    The reworked vessel was not what God had in mind to begin with. It was the vessel that ended up spoiled that He had in mind at first but instead God had to react and respond to circumstances as they unfolded.

    Leaving the analogy, God wanted to give Israel a Kingdom and was actively in the process of doing exactly that, fulfilling prophesy after prophesy in and through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as well as the giving of the Holy Spirit. But Israel refused their King! They HATED the King! They killed the King and then when He rose the from dead, they hated Him all the more! And Jesus wasn't just any King, He was THE King of all kings! How can God give a nation a kingdom when they hate the Ultimate King of all time?

    The answer is, He can't and He didn't. (see Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18).

    Now, as you say, God didn't just give up. He took was He had and formed it into something else, in this case, The Body of Christ, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. I would say, however, that such use of Jeremiah 18 is rather indirect. The application is only valid in the sense that this is the way God works but Jeremiah 18 is NOT making reference to, nor making any prophesy of the future Body of Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Good grief, who is whitestone?
    lol,GT your imagination is getting the best of you both with scripture and now it seems with Me? I'm just another human being on a Theology forum,lol...

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    So you agree that GOD doesn't change then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Absolutely!
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    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    So you agree that GOD doesn't change then?
    1Tim 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)
    (3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Matt 1:23 (AKJV/PCE)
    (1:23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    1Tim 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)
    (3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Matt 1:23 (AKJV/PCE)
    (1:23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
    The people requested a king.

    I don't have time for this at the moment.

    I will explain later.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

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    Hebrews 13: 8. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    (GOD doesn't change in character. Manifesting within HIS creation is wholly within the power of GOD.....and could be seen as a change from invisible to physically manifest. This becoming physical temporarily isn't really a change to me as it was always part of GOD'S will and within GOD'S power.)



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    Last edited by popsthebuilder; May 17th, 2018 at 01:48 PM.

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