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Thread: How is Paul's message different?

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    Put another way...Jews were baptized by John in expectation of Christ's soon appearance. They repented and were washed in advance of His arrival, like the bride made ready, without spot, awaiting the Groom.

    So what possible purpose would Paul water baptizing them serve, since they'd already received John's baptism that fitted them for Christ's arrival?

    That's a question I've yet to see answered by people who say these guys were water baptized (twice), the second time by Paul or at Paul's direction.

    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    And they never did it.

    Did Christ lie, or were they disobedient failures? Do you know the answer?

    They did do it, and those who followed and follow Christ have continued to do the same.

    You have no intention of doing anything because you do not believe and obey Him, and He knows that so until you repent He will not send you.

    LA
    My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Put another way...Jews were baptized by John in expectation of Christ's soon appearance. They repented and were washed in advance of His arrival, like the bride made ready, without spot, awaiting the Groom.

    So what possible purpose would Paul water baptizing them serve, since they'd already received John's baptism that fitted them for Christ's arrival?

    That's a question I've yet to see answered by people who say these guys were water baptized (twice), the second time by Paul or at Paul's direction.

    Johns baptism was one of repentance and temporary like crossing the red sea under Moses, but Peters and Pauls baptism was the Jordan crossing into the Kingdom of God.

    Paul taught the disciples of John the same thing at Ephesus and Paul baptized them in water into Christ and they became filled with the Holy Spirit, which never occurred at Johns baptism except for Jesus Himself whose baptism was not one of repentance.

    Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
    Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
    Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
    Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

    LA
    My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    I tend to agree with Stam's take on it, based on the fact that there's no quotation marks in Greek. Put (sort of) into modern paragraph form, it'd look like this (Paul in red, them in blue):




    This works for me for three reasons.

    1. This reading aligns perfectly with Paul's insistence that he was NOT sent to baptize.

    2. John indeed baptized "the people" in the name of (by the authority of) the Lord Jesus, Who was coming right behind him. These guys had been water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus...by John, not by Paul.

    3. If Paul water baptized these guys, then they got the same water baptism TWICE, which makes no sense and would be something completely without precedent under the Kingdom program from the four gospels onward.

    Saying Paul water baptized these guys creates far more problems than it solves.

    Hi and there is no WATER / HUDOR in Acts 19:1-6 and are not understands these verses !

    #1 , In verse 2 , since having believed , did you receive the Holy Spirit ?

    #2 , They response was , whether there is Holy Spirit !!

    #3 For what reason , then were you Baptized ??

    #4 Why ? They were to be Kings and Priests in the Millennium , they did not know Rev 1:6 !!

    #5, In verse 4 Paul said , John indeed BAPTISMA , which means John was a BAPTIZER , because that is what BAPTISMA means !!

    #6 , John did a BAPTISM / BAPTISMA , with a WATER BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE , that is on the coming one Jesus !!

    #7 Then Paul in verse 6 Paul laid his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit came upon them and were SPEAKING in Languages and Prophesying as those on the Day of Pentecost !!

    #8 Paul never laid a drop of WATER / HUDOR on them at all !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    It doesn't tell us exactly when it happened. But it couldn't have happened until Israel was temporarily cast aside and I believe that happened at Acts 7 with the stoning Stephen at Acts 7.




    Israel wasn't cast aside. Races were. Anyone from any race can believe and be "in". Anyone from any race can not believe and be

    As soon as you get ride of the race/nation category you will see the NT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Put another way...Jews were baptized by John in expectation of Christ's soon appearance. They repented and were washed in advance of His arrival, like the bride made ready, without spot, awaiting the Groom.

    So what possible purpose would Paul water baptizing them serve, since they'd already received John's baptism that fitted them for Christ's arrival?

    That's a question I've yet to see answered by people who say these guys were water baptized (twice), the second time by Paul or at Paul's direction.

    Either that or Stam simply once more unwittingly departed from one of the core Acts 9 MAD study principles, here and there, that he himself helped re-emerge.

    The principle about Paul's at times seemingly odd words and actions when dealing with Jews, that the following sheds light on.

    Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 19:7 And all the men were about twelve. 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

    Why this focus on "because of the Jews..."?

    1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

    In Acts 18, he is simply respecting another man's foundation and its members.

    Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

    Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    Put it this way, you're Paul.

    Those 12 (Israel's number) are not your ministry.

    What do you do?

    You do what he chewed out Peter per later in Galatians for - for Peter's having failed to behave towards those Grace Believing Gentiles as Paul would have behaved towards them.

    In other words, in Acts 18, Paul, aware they are of "another man's foundation" deals with them as Peter would have; as Peter did with Israelites under his jurisdiction in Acts 2.

    Note that Paul was the one who brought up the water baptism.

    Obviously, he was dealing with Kingdom saints, accordingly.

    Just as the Apostles at Jerusalem sent for Paul in Acts 13, and so on - because it was not their ministry.

    It is ever fascinating just how much is there about all these things to dig out into the light of one's understanding.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Israel wasn't cast aside.
    So the children of Israel remain a special people unto the LORD, above all people who are on the face of the earth?

    You just don't understand the most simple things found in the Scriptures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So the children of Israel remain a special people unto the LORD, above all people who are on the face of the earth?

    You just don't understand the most simple things found in the Scriptures.



    That's a D'ist belief that is not in the NT. It is nowhere in the NT.

    why is there not one blasted validation of future activity with a nation of Israel in any doctrinal NT letter about the future: Rom 2, 8, 11, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3, I Jn 2, Acts 26? It should be perfectly clear in EVERY single one of them.

    I will accept nothing less.
    Last edited by Interplanner; Yesterday at 10:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Where Paul's?
    Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
    So Paul is the baptizer who washes away his own sins?

    In his commentary on this verse Sir Robert Anderson writes, "The Apostle records the words which Ananias addressed to him (Paul) at his conversion: 'Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord'...His meaning is clear: 'Arise and be baptized, and turn away from your evil courses, calling on His name'" [emphasis mine] (Anderson, The Bible or the Church? [London: Pickering & Inglis, Second Edition], 230-231).

    That is the meaning of the words "ye washed yourselves" and "cleanse ourselves" in the following verses:

    "And such were some of you: but ye washed yourselves, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God "
    (1 Cor.6:11; RV, Marginal Note).

    "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God"
    (2 Cor.7:1).

    I've been through this before with you before and you just pick and choose which verses you will believe and which ones you refuse to believe in order to cling to your views on water baptism. According to your ideas Paul and those with him gave the wrong answer to the following question:

    "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
    (Acts 16:30-31).

    Who can take you seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    The proof, aside from simply reading James 2, is that the Twelve did not forsake the Law.
    Clete, you need to look at what James wrote in the First chapter if you are really looking for the truth:

    "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed"
    (James 1:25).

    Are we to believe that the "law of liberty" spoken of here is the Law, which Peter referred to as a "yoke"?:

    "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"
    (Acts 15:10).

    Paul also referred to the Law as a "yoke of bondage":

    "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).

    In fact, Paul contrasted the "yoke of bondage" with the "liberty" which belongs to all who have been set free from the law. So common sense dictates that the "perfect law of liberty" of which James speaks is not the Law of Moses.

    Instead, James uses of the phrase "perfect law of liberty" in the same sense which Paul uses the phrase the "law of faith":

    "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law" (Ro.3:27-31).

    James made it plain that the salvation of those he addressed was based on nothing more than faith in the word of truth:

    "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (James 1:18).

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    If the D'ists won't show me were the express indication of the future race/nation of Israel is in EACH AND EVERY ONE of those passages listed, they should shut up. There is no sensible way to believe what they believe unless it is clearly and expressly in each and all of them. Any thing less is ridiculous.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    Since the D'ists cannot answer why the express re-emergence of a race/nation is not in each and every one of those NT passages listed, there is nothing better to do than smear opponents over what Acts 19's baptism is about. Go guys!!!
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I'm not aware of the circumcision being told to follow the law. Yes they are from the old law. The things in the letter to the Gentiles are from the Holy Spirit and the apostles. Paul is in full agreement and delivers it himself.
    That's bazaar, in that you agree that everything in all these things we have discussed are speaking of the old law and that you agree that whats told to the gentiles is different from the things you see of the Jews and what they are doing. You then say that neither of them are under any of that and that the apostles are doing this all in front of them because they are weak and that the Holy Spirit is also.

    Who is the weak if it is not the people who live today? And if it is so that the apostles said exactly what they said in the dialogue we spoke of and did do those things(Acts of the Apostles)we speak of how is it that you see that they were doing things they knew were incorrect and then expect either them or us to see? There is that one thing in what you said it is that you know it said this but you think it says something else thats what I see you saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Since the D'ists cannot answer why the express re-emergence of a race/nation is not in each and every one of those NT passages listed, there is nothing better to do than smear opponents over what Acts 19's baptism is about. Go guys!!!

    lol, put the mirror down it's singular not plural...

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