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Thread: How is Paul's message different?

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    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    The key to Mid Acts Disp'ism, in my opinion, is recognition and study of the previously secret revelation FIRST given to Paul. There are two major facts involved in it:

    1. The Gospel of the Kingdom was preached during the period covered in the four Gospel accounts. All Israel heard about it.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    2. Paul says what he called "my gospel" was a secret hidden from man, revealed to himself before anyone else learned of it through him.
    This is what I disagree with.
    Paul tells Christians (those in Christ) of the mystery/my gospel. What did he preach to them that made them Christians? The same thing Peter did on Pentecost. No one has yet to prove otherwise. He also baptized the believers just as Peter did. Since he received the gospel from Jesus and not man, where did he get water baptism?


    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    You just don't like MAD for pointing it out, because it contradicts your Baptist tradition.
    I'm not a Baptist.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    2. Paul says what he called "my gospel" was a secret hidden from man, revealed to himself before anyone else learned of it through him.






    There are some fine points to address here:
    1, the expression from man meant from the rabbinic schools at that time. That does not mean it did not exist or was not known other ways. It is just a comment on Judaism.
    2, I don't know where the 'before anyone else' part comes from. The emphasis should be on the fact that it was the SAME message through a DIFFERENT channel. Instead of 3 years on the ground with Paul, Christ intercepted him while he was doing a roundup. Then he taught him while rehabilitating out in Arabia, what ever that means. Obviously the good report of Gal 1:23 was enough to pre-empt the need to go back to Jerusalem directly; he was in Damascus for 3 years. The same, single Gospel. Once actually meeting with those people who accepted the good report, they added nothing to his message, 2:6.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    The fact that Peter is clearly the leader of the acts and events of Acts 1-8 could not be more clear.... AND the fact that Peter completely disappears from the book of Acts after chapter 15 SHOULD be a clear indication that something has changed. But it is ignored instead.





    Luke had no other reports about Peter after he took on with Paul on those trips. They didn't have internet. Anyway the purpose of the document is material for legal representation of Paul to show he was not party to the zealot rebellion in Judea.
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    In Acts 13 Paul preaches the gospel and it's the same gospel Peter preached on Pentecost, 13:16-41 and he doesn't mention a word about God’s “grace”. I'm afraid you're biased.




    They both have grace in it. Not the word but another one of the manifold expressions of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    How can they hear a gospel, believe and be saved by grace and it not be the gospel of grace? Compare the two, Acts 2 & 13, and prove they are different. Neither mentions grace.

    Addressing Israel
    Peter: 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words;
    Paul: 16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel,

    Christ descended from David
    Peter: 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    Paul: 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Savior, Jesus:

    Christ died
    Peter: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
    Paul: 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

    David saw decay
    Peter: 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    Paul: 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

    Christ did not see decay
    Peter: 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    Paul: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

    Jesus resurrected
    Peter: 32 This Jesus hath God raised up,
    Paul: 30 But God raised him from the dead:

    People witnessed the resurrection
    Peter: 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    Paul: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

    Forgiveness of sins through Jesus
    Peter: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Paul: 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

    Jesus is Israel’s savior
    Peter: 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    Paul: 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Savior, Jesus:




    Don't forget he was made Lord and Christ in the resurrection. That's why it the completion of Ps 2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Agreed


    This is what I disagree with.
    Paul tells Christians (those in Christ) of the mystery/my gospel. What did he preach to them that made them Christians? The same thing Peter did on Pentecost. No one has yet to prove otherwise. He also baptized the believers just as Peter did. Since he received the gospel from Jesus and not man, where did he get water baptism?




    I'm not a Baptist.
    If memory serves, slick, you have admitted on here in the past that you hold with the "Church of Christ" - which in Protestantism, is actually considered a cult.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    the approach of the apostles is given in Acts 15:19: it was a matter of not making it difficult for Gentiles by reducing things to four lines. Jews were still welcome to practice what they wanted, but they couldn't help but realize it was fading away.

    This is like an itch that won't go away these four things that you say are being reduced "what are they being reduced from (in your mind)?" Theres the old law,Leviticus 17 and 18,,theres the Noahide laws, the new covenant,ect, maybe more but this you see them being reduced from...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    If memory serves, slick, you have admitted on here in the past that you hold with the "Church of Christ" - which in Protestantism, is actually considered a cult.

    Rom. 5:6-8.
    Rom. 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

    Is the name on your building in the bible?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Rom. 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

    Is the name on your building in the bible?
    Then as you see things you are "Amill."?

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Rom. 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

    Is the name on your building in the bible?
    Rom 16: 16 is one of their ("Church of Christ" cult's) pet passages.

    You're worse off then you know.

    Rom. 5: 6-8.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hebrew through Revelation is all Jewish , an in-escapable FACT !~
    You did not answer my question but instead you want to change the subject.

    What do you think that Peter was referring to when he used the words "free" and 'liberty"?

    "As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God"
    (1 Pet.2:16).

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    Quote Originally Posted by whitestone View Post
    Then as you see things you are "Amill."?
    Personally, the way I see things I'm a Christian. No hyphenation because I don't believe Christ is divided. My understanding is you're either a Christian or your not.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    You're worse off then you know.
    Why the personal attacks? Why not deal with the problem I posed?

    If Paul received the gospel from Jesus and not man, then where did his water baptizing come from?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    The reason the question has no effect on me is because I really can’t see an answer coming from any place besides speculation.
    Any place that you want to go, you mean.

    I've been all but beating you over the head with the answer for months now.

    My answer would be the same reason he chose Moses. Right man for the job.
    What? No, no, no!

    I'm not asking you about what Saul's qualifications (or lack thereof) were!

    Is it possible that the point of the question escapes you?

    Who was Moses replacing? Who was already in place with a full three years of first person training from the incarnate God Himself that Moses was stepping along side of? Who was it that had been super-naturally indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God Himself in direct fulfillment of prophecy that Moses was stepping all over with a message that he had to and explain to them?

    There is zero - zero parallel between Moses and Paul that has anything to do with why I am asking the question.

    If Paul had simply been "the right man for the job" you might think that since God had separated him from his mother's womb for this ministry that Jesus might have brought him along side and made him an apostle like he did the others.

    The fact is, frankly, that I do not believe that you didn't get the point of the question. This was your attempt at avoiding it by trying to turn it into something else.

    Besides that, I fail to see how it proves he was given a different gospel. I see he was given a different audience but not a different gospel.
    That doesn't help you either.

    If someone where to ask you outside the context of this discussion who the audience of the Twelve Apostles are in the New Testament, you'd instantly say that believers are. You wouldn't hesitate for one second to give that answer and you wouldn't qualify it by making any distinction between Jewish believers vs. gentile believers. Your mind would instantly go to the great commission an the phrase "all the world". But now, you're stuck because you just got through telling me that they had a different audience than Paul's and so that is no longer an option because the whole world is Paul's audience, both Jew and Greek alike. So who's left to be the "different audience" of the Twelve?

    I see the same thing and that is exactly why I strive to challenge what I understand to be truth. I don’t want to blindly follow what I was taught from youth. That’s why I have joined in the discussion on this site. If mad is truth, I want to know it but as you have figured out, I have since come to the conclusion mad is not truth. It creates too many problems that can't be answered.
    No it doesn't but this statement made something click for me. It goes back to our original discussion, which I suggest you go back a read through because I just realized that we haven't pushed passed your paradigm yet - not even close. The fact that you can claim the Mid-Acts Dispensationalism creates problems at all is proof of it.

    The error that you are making is critiquing one paradigm from within another. It is a subtle form of question begging. In other words, the problems you see being created are only problems if your paradigm is true. In fact, one probably has to hold to your paradigm to even see the problems you speak of.

    If you are genuinely searching for the objective truth, which I believe you when you say you are, then you must must must guard your mind against making this error. That, of course, is way easier to say than it is to do because your paradigm itself is what will prevent you from detecting when doing it. All you can do (that I can think of) is to become very much more methodical. Question the premise of every question. You have to always be asking yourself whether whatever objection you're thinking of would exist outside your paradigm.

    A clue, that even I have been missing up to now, is when someone can't seem to understand where in the world your questions are coming from or why you keep asking the same question again and again in spite of one's best effort at giving a direct answer. Discussing paradigm level issues is very much like having a discussion where there is a language barrier or even a culture barrier where lots of concepts have very different implications in a hundred different directions.

    At this point I stick around mostly to challenge those who are willing but I still and always will continuing to challenge what I believe. I gotsta know.
    No argument from me on that point.

    It is difficult if not impossible. That’s why I wanted to start at the beginning and keep it simple before moving on.
    What you've picked to focus on is not the beginning. It's beginning of the dispensation perhaps but that's much nearer the end of the story than it is the beginning. It is, in fact, a detail. What you need to do is to forget the details for now and focus on getting a view of the big picture. Then the details become easy.

    WHY OH WHY DIDN'T I SEE THIS EARLIER!

    I really must be slipping!

    Look, you very simply have to get your hands on Bob Enyart's, The Plot. The working title of that book (if I remember the story correctly) was "The Big Picture". The whole purpose of that book is to give a wide angle overview of the plot line of the whole bible. A fair chunk of it has been presented here in conceptual form but in the book, Bob takes the time to establish each point biblically. A task that is well outside the scope of this forum. Bob does not start by focusing on some particular detail of doctrine. Most theology books are written to tell you what the author thinks about a certain doctrine or set of doctrines. That isn't the point of this book. It does go into detail about several doctrines but not until after it had laid the foundation of showing you the big picture context of the bible overall (i.e. "The Plot" - of the bible.) The danger now is that this very discussion has inoculated you against the whole idea but, be that as it may, you need to see the arguments for yourself. You need to read that book.

    A different audience.
    There's only one "all the world" (Mark 16:15).

    Resting in Him,
    Cletes

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Personally, the way I see things I'm a Christian. No hyphenation because I don't believe Christ is divided. My understanding is you're either a Christian or your not.
    Oh,I Mine own self would not though then defend the accusation unless I understood the position of the "Church of Christ" denomination, they are Amill..

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