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Thread: How is Paul's message different?

  1. #1876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    The books of Acts is all about the transition from the Peter and the Twelve (i.e. Israel) to Paul and the Gentiles. And I'd say that Peter's being made to eat unclean foods is a really good indication that something had changed. Something that wasn't intuitively understood by Peter, don't you agree?

    Further, Peter and the Twelve were believers and Paul explicitly stated that God had not cut them when He cut off Israel as a nation, so where is the need for Paul? Where is the need to give Paul the gospel by revelation and send him (a Jew just like Peter and the Twelve) to the Gentiles if it was the same gospel?

    Do you see my point?
    turbosixx likes to ignore what is inconvenient to his story.

    The fact that Peter is clearly the leader of the acts and events of Acts 1-8 could not be more clear.... AND the fact that Peter completely disappears from the book of Acts after chapter 15 SHOULD be a clear indication that something has changed. But it is ignored instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    There is no need for Acts if Paul's message was the same. There's no need for Paul at all for that matter. He could just as easily (perhaps more easily) have been converted in a normal way and been a convert like all the other converts and still been a leader and an evangelist. There just no need for all the fireworks and drama.
    turbosixx's convenient answer to "Why Paul?" is .... why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    That cannot and did not preach the same thing!

    Why do you keep asking me this? You don't get to just ignore the epistles.
    turbosixx, like many others, like to stack the deck and expect us to acquiesce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I don't think it is possible to establish such a thing without the epistles beyond what I just got through explaining.
    Why would you want to do so? What possible motive could you have to want to avoid the epistles in asking such a question as "What is the gospel?"

    The book of Acts is not about the gospel, at least not directly. It's purpose is not to present the gospel but to present a history of the transition away from the Twelve and Israel and to Paul and the gentiles. A history that is critical to the acceptance of Paul as a legitimate Apostle which only makes sense if Paul's message was substantially different than that of Peter and the Twelve.
    Most anti-MAD folks try to turn the book of Acts into a doctrinal discourse, when it's actually a historical account about the fall of Israel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  3. #1877
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I love this. Every time I take a peak at something this dork has written it seems he always does this.
    I am sure you take a peek at all of my posts and when you see you can provide no intelligent answer you just ignore my points. But when you think you actually have an intelligent answer you do reply to my posts. But even though I answered your points about the second chapter of James you did not even attempt to answer back. And then you have the nerve to call me a dork!

    You just continue to ignore the fact that James makes it plain that the salvation of those he addressed were saved by faith and faith alone:

    "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).

    You just refuse to believe that these words of James make it plain that a person receives the new birth by faith and faith alone! And of course you IGNORED Peter's words which say the same thing:

    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever....And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

    You are ignorant of the fact even those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

    Everybody who has ever been saved throughout history has been saved by grace apart from works. But according to your mistaken view the Jews could not be saved apart from works!

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    The fact that Peter is clearly the leader of the acts and events of Acts 1-8 could not be more clear.... AND the fact that Peter completely disappears from the book of Acts after chapter 15 SHOULD be a clear indication that something has changed. But it is ignored instead.
    Yes, and the next time we hear from Peter we can see that he is preaching the same gospel which was first revealed by Paul when repeatedly used the words "free" and "liberty" when referring to the fact that those in the Body of Christ have been set free from the law:

    "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Gal.2:4).

    "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage"
    (Gal.5:1).

    In fact, Paul charged the Galatians not to use the liberty as a base of operations for sin:

    "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another"
    (Gal.5:13).

    That practically mirrors the words of Peter found in his first epistle:

    "As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God"
    (1 Pet.2:16).

    Free from the law!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
    "For, brethren, ye have been called unto [B
    liberty[/B]; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another"[/I] (Gal.5:13).[/INDENT]

    That practically mirrors the words of Peter found in his first epistle:

    "As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God"
    (1 Pet.2:16).

    Free from the law!
    Hi Jerry and why do you say that Gal 5:1 and that 1 Peter 2:16 are the same ??

    Will you clarify ??

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi Jerry and why do you say that Gal 5:1 and that 1 Peter 2:16 are the same ??

    Will you clarify ??
    "As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).

    "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).

    In both instances the subject is "liberty" and that can only mean liberty from the law or being set free from the law. I did not mean that they are actually the same but instead to point out that they both speak of the same thing, freedom from the law.

    Dan, what do you think that Peter was referring to when he used the words "free" and 'liberty"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    We have an uninterrupted sermon preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost beginning at Acts 2:14 and ending at Acts 2:36.
    The reason it ended in verse 36 was because of an interruption. They were pierced and asked Peter what they should do.
    After he answers their question he continues:
    40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    in that sermon there is not a word about God's "grace"
    In Acts 13 Paul preaches the gospel and it's the same gospel Peter preached on Pentecost, 13:16-41 and he doesn't mention a word about God’s “grace”. I'm afraid you're biased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    On that day those who believed Peter's message were being saved. That means that Peter did preach a gospel that day and that gospel was not the "gospel of grace."
    They believed and were saved, then by what were they saved if it's not by grace??
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    turbosixx likes to ignore what is inconvenient to his story.
    That's been his M.O. since he got here. Then he asks the same questions over and over, as if you never answered them before.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    They believed and were saved, then by what were they saved if it's not by grace??
    Yes, they were saved by grace but the gospel of grace was not preached to them. They were saved when they believed the gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. That is not the gospel which Paul preached to the Gentiles, the gospel of grace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    This is my fault really. I should never have allowed this discussion to turn into a debate about specific doctrines. When asking the question, "Why Paul?" had no effect on you, I should have stopped there.
    The reason the question has no effect on me is because I really can’t see an answer coming from any place besides speculation. My answer would be the same reason he chose Moses. Right man for the job. Besides that, I fail to see how it proves he was given a different gospel. I see he was given a different audience but not a different gospel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Most people and I mean nearly everyone simply believes what they were taught as a child. If they're a Christian, it's because their parents where Christian. If they're a Baptist it's because they grew up going to a Baptist church, etc I, on the other hand, am weird. I've never settled for what someone taught me. I'm not at all satisfied with knowing the facts. I want to know WHY something is the way it is. A pastor tells me that his doctrine is more correct than that of the church next door (like literally in the very next lot on the street) and, for him and most of the congregation, that's good enough. I, on the other hand, instantly think to myself, "The pastor next door probably just finished saying the exact same sentence. What makes one right and the other wrong?" .
    I see the same thing and that is exactly why I strive to challenge what I understand to be truth. I don’t want to blindly follow what I was taught from youth. That’s why I have joined in the discussion on this site. If mad is truth, I want to know it but as you have figured out, I have since come to the conclusion mad is not truth. It creates too many problems that can't be answered.

    At this point I stick around mostly to challenge those who are willing but I still and always will continuing to challenge what I believe. I gotsta know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    There's just no way to do the topic justice on a web forum.
    It really does require a methodical, step by step, analysis of the biblical material where one can see each premise, understand each argument, follow each conclusion that leads to the next argument. It is the only way paradigms are ever changed.
    It is difficult if not impossible. That’s why I wanted to start at the beginning and keep it simple before moving on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    WHY PAUL? What's Paul got that the Twelve didn't?
    A different audience.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, they were saved by grace but the gospel of grace was not preached to them. They were saved when they believed the gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. That is not the gospel which Paul preached to the Gentiles, the gospel of grace.
    How can they hear a gospel, believe and be saved by grace and it not be the gospel of grace? Compare the two, Acts 2 & 13, and prove they are different. Neither mentions grace.

    Addressing Israel
    Peter: 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words;
    Paul: 16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel,

    Christ descended from David
    Peter: 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    Paul: 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Savior, Jesus:

    Christ died
    Peter: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
    Paul: 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

    David saw decay
    Peter: 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    Paul: 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

    Christ did not see decay
    Peter: 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    Paul: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

    Jesus resurrected
    Peter: 32 This Jesus hath God raised up,
    Paul: 30 But God raised him from the dead:

    People witnessed the resurrection
    Peter: 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    Paul: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

    Forgiveness of sins through Jesus
    Peter: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Paul: 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

    Jesus is Israel’s savior
    Peter: 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    Paul: 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Savior, Jesus:
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    "As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).

    "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).

    In both instances the subject is "liberty" and that can only mean liberty from the law or being set free from the law. I did not mean that they are actually the same but instead to point out that they both speak of the same thing, freedom from the law.

    Dan, what do you think that Peter was referring to when he used the words "free" and 'liberty"?

    Hi Jerry and in 1 Peter 2:16 all should start reading in verse 2:9-15 to understand what verse 16 means !!

    #1 A royal Priesthood

    #2 , Have a good witness among the Gentiles , verse 12

    #3 , And to glorify God in the day of visitation , so what does that mean Jerry ??

    #4, Submit to the ordinances of man

    #5 Also for the Jew to obey verse 14

    $6 , And verse 15 leads all into verse 16 as FREE as they are free to worship and be a witness among the Gentiles and obey all the Laws where the Jews are scattered !!

    Hebrew through Revelation is all Jewish , an in-escapable FACT !~

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Your best is not very good because you will not believe anything that does not agree with what you want it so say.
    You're actually the one that convinced me mad is false.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    You're actually the one that convinced me mad is false.
    The key to Mid Acts Disp'ism, in my opinion, is recognition and study of the previously secret revelation FIRST given to Paul. There are two major facts involved in it:

    1. The Gospel of the Kingdom was preached during the period covered in the four Gospel accounts. All Israel heard about it.

    2. Paul says what he called "my gospel" was a secret hidden from man, revealed to himself before anyone else learned of it through him.

    You understand this. You know these two points are Bible facts and so cannot be refuted or ignored.

    You just don't like MAD for pointing it out, because it contradicts your Baptist tradition.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    You're actually the one that convinced me mad is false.
    I can see your frustration coming out like a small child that knows that they are wrong but does not want to admit it and needs someone to "take it out on".

    Grow up and believe the truth when you're told it.

    Also note that MAD (Mid Acts Dispensationalism) is an ACRONYM and should be capitalized.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    That's been his M.O. since he got here. Then he asks the same questions over and over, as if you never answered them before.
    Yes, he is certainly a fake seeker of "understanding" of the position that he criticizes.

    Also, like SO many is only able to see similarities and not differences in the ministries of Peter and Paul.
    Last edited by Right Divider; April 17th, 2018 at 08:37 AM. Reason: typo
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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