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  1. #91
    TOL Subscriber heir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    No problem, heir; I was not out to convince you of what I see about those things differently. Was just wanting to compare our different understanding about them.

    I am well aware of how set In yours you are.

    Likewise with me on my end.

    We differ. It is what it is.
    You can admit that there is a difference between Greeks (blessers) who Paul knew and found in the synagogue of the Jews and Gentiles to whom Paul had only heard of their faith. Can't you? I made a good case proving it. And answering the questions I posed would be good too.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    To me, that comes accross as more of your usual, first impression, surface level reading of those passages.

    It is what it is - each of use where we are in our respective level of understanding - it is what it is.
    snide remarks as usual
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    You can admit that there is a difference between Greeks (blessers) who Paul knew and found in the synagogue of the Jews and Gentiles to whom Paul had only heard of their faith. Can't you? I made a good case proving it. And answering the questions I posed would be good too.
    No, I do not hold to a difference between them in that. Throughout Paul's letters he writes of having received word of how people are doing.

    That passage in Ephesians is too vague by itself as to that to conclude from it that Paul did not know them.

    The evidence points to the opposite of that..

    Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. 19:20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

    Looks to me like they knew Paul.

    Acts 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks. 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

    Yep.

    Acts 19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

    Yep, they knew him.

    Acts 19:29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre. 19:30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not.

    Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, 20:19 Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

    There is what's behind Paul's later relating to them of his having heard of their faith - he'd left them concerned about how they would fare without him.

    Paul lets them know he has been praying for them...

    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    To that he adds...

    1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

    He then goes into what said additional aspect of his praying for them has consisted of - the same "word of his grace" edification concern for them that he mentioned to them when he left them...

    Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

    As for the other issues you raised; I already addressed them in the earlier post; let me know what was not clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    snide remarks as usual
    I'm not trying to be snide by that. That is your projection into my words.

    I was relating my impression from your assertions of how you arrived at them.

    Quit reading your curtness into another's words - such is not my intent.

  7. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    No, I do not hold to a difference between them in that. Throughout Paul's letters he writes of having received word of how people are doing.
    Things that are different are not the same! Those to whom Paul taught in the synagogue of the Jews and one school of Tyrannus (“Jews and Greeks”-which leaves an entire group of Gentiles OUT) are not the same Gentiles that Paul had only heard of their faith. So simple to see and acknowledge and yet…there you are denying it.

    And can you please answer :

    Why were certain Gentiles to whom Paul was sent under the handwriting of ordinances? Are we? Why or why not?
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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  9. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    I'm not trying to be snide by that. That is your projection into my words.

    I was relating my impression from your assertions of how you arrived at them.

    Quit reading your curtness into another's words - such is not my intent.
    You said it to Bro. SaulToPaul not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    To me, that comes accross as more of your usual, first impression, surface level reading of those passages.

    It is what it is - each of use where we are in our respective level of understanding - it is what it is.
    You say things like that often and I can see you mean it in a derogatory manner. Of course you won't admit that either. You're in denial.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    heir, I am only making an observation about what your assertions reveal to me about your study method.

    I am forever going on about tracing the origin of a thing back to said origin through studying out what its recurrent patterns point back to.

    I am relating an objective observation.

    In fact, I am well aware of my own need to ever strive to be careful to look at how I myself approach studying a thing out.

    I am well aware of my own failings in that, at times.

    Twice, I have begun to agree with you and STP on a view you hold only to find I only had because I had allowed myself to move away from key principles that have always held sound - to me.

    I am well aware that sounds derogatory. But that is not my intent.

    My intent is where is the objectivity in this or that conclusion - have I followed the principles in this?

    We differ in what those principles are.

    That does not mean I am looking down my nose at you - I greatly admire your zeal - my own mom was like that when I was coming up. I can still see her giving the JWs their well deserved what for, lol

    You and I just don't know one another. As a result, we are bound to misinterpret our words to one another at some point or another.

    Heck, even people who know each other well still end up doing that every now and then.

    The thing is to approach posts (from people who are essentially strangers) from the same kind of non personal attachment to bias we each hope we are approaching the Scriptures from.

    My apologies for any offense my intended objectivity may have met with on your end of the equation.

    I'm sure it won't be the last - on either of our parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Things that are different are not the same! Those to whom Paul taught in the synagogue of the Jews and one school of Tyrannus (“Jews and Greeks”-which leaves an entire group of Gentiles OUT) are not the same Gentiles that Paul had only heard of their faith. So simple to see and acknowledge and yet…there you are denying it.

    And can you please answer :

    Why were certain Gentiles to whom Paul was sent under the handwriting of ordinances? Are we? Why or why not?
    Define "ordinances" (there is more than one sense of that word).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Define "ordinances" (there is more than one sense of that word).
    Colossians 2:14 KJV - Ephesians 2:15 KJV -

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    Can't just go by a passage or two, PJ...

    Study out the words "doings" "ways" and "ordinances."

    In the KJV.

    Here are some principles I have found over time that hold as being reliable practices - and in this, can be said to be, in one sense of the word in question, "ordinances" worth practicing...

    Often, you will find the intended sense of a word, not only by how it is being used and where it is being used in contrast to how it is found being used elsewhere, but also, by other words used either within the same passage and or another passage in which the same subject is being addressed.

    Another principle I have found highly helpful - how words have been translated in the KJV.

    For example, in 1 Corinthians 12:11 and 2 Timothy 2:15 the KJV translates a word with the same English word that differs in word, in the Greek in both passages.

    In both passages, it uses the same ENGLISH sense of the word "dividing."

    What that is, is the KJV's OWN English; the result of its translation of the Greek.

    This ends up acting as a built-in dictionary - it allows seeing the SAME ENGLISH SENSE of two DIFFERENT words that, in the Greek, are neverthelesss, the SAME sense.

    So...

    1) Look for other words within a same or similar passage, also;

    2) Contrast different uses of a same word, and;

    3) Consider same words in English that might differ in the Greek and or the Hebrew as a different word in each and yet they carry the same meaning.

    You could refer to those as my "doings" "ordinances" or "ways which be in Christ."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Define "ordinances" (there is more than one sense of that word).
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4667921
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    "Handwriting"

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Some time ago, I was invited to the home of a Mid-Acts Believer from a country very different in eating customs in contrast to our own.

    While there I abided by the "ordinances" of Romans 14 and 1 Cor. 8.

    Barney might not have, but Andy would have known to do so.

    Two thousand years after said "that's not for us" supposedly "ceased."

    Such "is...the Lord's supper.." such is to "shew the Lord's death" twenty four, seven, three, six, five "til He come..."

  21. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Some time ago, I was invited to the home of a Mid-Acts Believer from a country very different in eating customs in contrast to our own.

    While there I abided by the "ordinances" of Romans 14 and 1 Cor. 8.

    Barney might not have, but Andy would have known to do so.

    Two thousand years after said "that's not for us" supposedly "ceased."

    Such "is...the Lord's supper.." such is to "shew the Lord's death" twenty four, seven, three, six, five "til He come..."
    You did not answer the questions.

    Why were certain Gentiles to whom Paul was sent under the handwriting of ordinances? Are we? Why or why not?
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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  23. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    You did not answer the questions.

    Why were certain Gentiles to whom Paul was sent under the handwriting of ordinances? Are we? Why or why not?

    Oooh, oooh, I know!

    For the sake of the Jew...as Paul was still gathering a remnant during Acts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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