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Thread: both in one Body by the cross

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    TOL Subscriber heir's Avatar
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    both in one Body by the cross

    Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

    The "both" that are "in one Body by the cross" (the “twain” made “one new man”) are not 1. Jew and 2. Gentile, but:

    1. “them that were nigh”/ the “we” “who first trusted in Christ” (Ephesians 1:12 KJV)

    and

    2. the "you which were afar off “/the “ye” who “also trusted” (Ephesians 1:13 KJV)

    In the first group, there were Gentiles (and Jews) and in the later group there were Gentiles, but those from the second group weren’t like (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV) the first group of Gentiles (Galatians 3:29 KJV).

    We see two types of Gentiles in the OT (Genesis 12:3 KJV). It should not be difficult to see that there were two types of Gentiles in the “dispensation of grace”.

    In Christ, there is no difference between them now as we are past the point where there was a distinction, but there was a distinction and in order to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Ephesians 3:9 KJV) we, the church, continue to make it known (Ephesians 3:10 KJV)!
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Silver Member SaulToPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    TOL Subscriber heir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    It's too bad there's only a few of us who see it here.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    In the first group, there were Gentiles (and Jews) and in the later group there were Gentiles, but those from the second group weren’t like (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV) the first group of Gentiles (Galatians 3:29 KJV).
    In that group there were people who were previously Gentiles but they had become Jews by the time when Paul wrote those words.

    In Christ, there is no difference between them now as we are past the point where there was a distinction, but there was a distinction and in order to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Ephesians 3:9 KJV) we, the church, continue to make it known (Ephesians 3:10 KJV)!
    The correct translation is "dispensation of the mystery," not fellowship of the mystery:

    "and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things" (Eph.3:9; ASV).

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    TOL Subscriber heir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    In that group there were people who were previously Gentiles but they had become Jews by the time when Paul wrote those words.
    In the first group, yes there were proselytes called Jews. So the first group was Jews, proselytes called Jews and Greeks.



    The correct translation is "dispensation of the mystery," not fellowship of the mystery:

    "and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things" (Eph.3:9; ASV).
    There's no need to change the term. "fellowship of the mystery" is a perfect Holy Spirit inspired term.

    We, the ye who also trusted Ephesians 1:13 KJV, are "fellowheirs" in the same "ship" with those who first trusted in Christ (Ephesians 1:12 KJV) beginning with Paul (1 Timothy 1:16 KJV).

    The first group, Jews and Greeks saved in a dispensation of the gospel committed to the apostle Paul(1 Corinthians 9:17 KJV)/the mystery of Christ (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV)

    and

    The second group saved in the dispensation of the grace of God to usward (Ephesians 3:1-5 KJV)/the mystery of the gospel (Ephesians 3:6 KJV, Ephesians 6:19 KJV).

    Works for me!
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    It's too bad there's only a few of us who see it here.
    I see it, it's clear.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    It's interesting that this verse is in there,

    to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Ephesians 3:9 KJV)

    It seems that this doctrine is one that is passed on through teaching rather than just solo study. I was taught it, and I saw it. Sister heir was taught it, and she saw it.

    It has been a huge eye opener for both of us, and I think that is why we talk about it every chance we get!
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    I see it, it's clear.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    TOL Subscriber heir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    It's interesting that this verse is in there,

    to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Ephesians 3:9 KJV)

    It seems that this doctrine is one that is passed on through teaching rather than just solo study. I was taught it, and I saw it. Sister heir was taught it, and she saw it.

    It has been a huge eye opener for both of us, and I think that is why we talk about it every chance we get!
    Amen to that, Brother! Thank you for your faithfulness in making all men see it! It has been a life changer for me!
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    This is definitely Lower Wacker Drive. musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    It's interesting that this verse is in there,

    to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Ephesians 3:9 KJV)

    It seems that this doctrine is one that is passed on through teaching rather than just solo study. I was taught it, and I saw it. Sister heir was taught it, and she saw it.

    It has been a huge eye opener for both of us, and I think that is why we talk about it every chance we get!
    Someone on the internet made me really mad, but were very very patient with me. A guy and his dad. I'm glad they took their time with me.

    Question: what fellowship is there apart from fellowship of the mystery? Is it really possible and, if so, on what basis? Yes, all believers are organically united in Christ, and so we do have a fellowship whether we know it or not. But what if they don't actually get that we are one?

    Even if someone does as Jerry and goes with "dispensation of the mystery," the question remains. If we agree with others on the saving Gospel of grace but pretty much nothing else, doctrinally...well, Paul doesn't say "fellowship of the Gospel." You see where I'm going. An open question for whomever.

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    I once visited a Mid-Acts assembly for a time where two factions were divided against both each other and a third group that wanted no part in said divisiveness.

    The issue the two were divided with one another being each's position on the book of Hebrews.

    Both also had issue with a third group for the third group's refusal to allow such issues to be an issue.

    Another time two groups within a different Mid-Acts assembly were rather nasty with one another over the Lord's Supper.

    Again, a third group refused to allow any of that to be an issue.

    Another assembly completely wiped any record of a former member's many contributions when that member moved on to another Mid-Acts assembly.

    I've run into like kinds of scandolous behavior on the part of other Mid-Acts assemblies.

    Fellowship of the mystery? What is that?

    Supposedly, it is the key to peace and harmony.

    Ask any of the above individuals I mentioned and they will each assert this key.

    Blind to their hypocrisy.

    Too often this so called fellowship is nothing more than hypocrites in agreement with one another against their supposed own.

    And this is people who supposedly "have the answer."

    Can one really expect "fellowship of the mystery" any better with those who deny the mystery to begin with?

    I'd still say yes.

    Some within the mystery would say no, and set out to ensure that such is the case.

    For such, A9D, Mid-Acts, MAD, Grace, or what have you, is merely legalism all over, under a different cloak.

    I continue to find the whole thing fascinating...

  22. #12
    TOL Subscriber heir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    I once visited a Mid-Acts assembly for a time where two factions were divided against both each other and a third group that wanted no part in said divisiveness.

    The issue the two were divided with one another being each's position on the book of Hebrews.

    Both also had issue with a third group for the third group's refusal to allow such issues to be an issue.

    Another time two groups within a different Mid-Acts assembly were rather nasty with one another over the Lord's Supper.

    Again, a third group refused to allow any of that to be an issue.

    Another assembly completely wiped any record of a former member's many contributions when that member moved on to another Mid-Acts assembly.

    I've run into like kinds of scandolous behavior on the part of other Mid-Acts assemblies.

    Fellowship of the mystery? What is that?

    Supposedly, it is the key to peace and harmony.

    Ask any of the above individuals I mentioned and they will each assert this key.

    Blind to their hypocrisy.

    Too often this so called fellowship is nothing more than hypocrites in agreement with one another against their supposed own.

    And this is people who supposedly "have the answer."

    Can one really expect "fellowship of the mystery" any better with those who deny the mystery to begin with?

    I'd still say yes.

    Some within the mystery would say no, and set out to ensure that such is the case.

    For such, A9D, Mid-Acts, MAD, Grace, or what have you, is merely legalism all over, under a different cloak.

    I continue to find the whole thing fascinating...
    Join Paul in making all men see what it is!
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    This is definitely Lower Wacker Drive. musterion's Avatar
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    I don't dispute what Danoh saw. I've seen it myself within the Grace movement (as it's called).

    At the same time, Paul himself was pretty doggone exclusive. narrow-minded and inflexible about doctrinal matters.

    When two saved parties are convinced beyond argument of their opposing positions, the Lord will have to straighten it out in the end. In the meantime, "...in all things, charity." At least that's what we're usually told to do...major on the minors; essentials/nonessentials; eat the fish, spit out the bones, etc.

    And yet...

    IF it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with ALL men.
    Paul didn't exclude other believers there, and to me he seemed to get even more urgent on this point in his final letters.

    If one knows and loves the truth, it will be impossible to live at peace with most unbelievers, who hate the truth and so will hate you. They won't allow for peace and you may or may not be able to abide their presence.

    But if it's not possible to live in peace with certain other believers no matter how you've tried; if they don't hold fast to sound words (2 Tim 1:13); if you are convinced they walk disorderly, leave their company (2 Thess 3:6). Is tolerating error, by showing charity toward those who err, really charity? Do we condone their error by maintaining our presence among them? I dunno...asking.
    Last edited by musterion; March 30th, 2016 at 07:04 AM.

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    I was once invited to preach the Cross at a Baptist held event.

    They knew where I stood - the Mystery - and were very, very unfriendly about the idea of my being allowed to preach.

    Their own Pastor intervened, saying "the Grace people understod how to preach the Cross better than most."

    He was one of the most gracious people I have ever met.

    A Baptist Preacher through and through, up in years and set in his doctrine, he was even more set in his "more noble" manner of focusing on "those things which make for peace," in the midst of difference.

    I never forgot his fine example of fellowship during such moments...

    Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Join Paul in making all men see what it is!
    Lol; I take it you've not been reading my posts.

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