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Thread: both in one Body by the cross

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    I don't believe the fellowship of the mystery is necessarily about grace believers getting along, but rather the fellowship of the twain that were made one by the mystery


    Eph 3
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    Then you should be just fine with what you and heir show is your perception of my recent posts on here are about

    Seriously, though - His entire emphasis is on His desire, plan and will as to His reconciling of all things back unto himself.

    I doubt that is towards an eternal Jerry Springer episode.

    As with my recent war in words - it has this intent. For I have nothing against you - neither as a person, nor as one I consider one in the Lord.

    Heck, just prior to this I began a thread on Andy Griffeth for you and John.

    But no, we will have to differ on this aspect of what the "fellowship of the mystery" is about.

    I'll have to go by Paul's use of that word and its variations in his writings as a whole.

    How can one care about fellowship when the fact is that the fellowship said fellowship is about is, and is tied to, the fellowship of the mystery?

    How is it heir would challenge me to come help all men see with you and her what is the fellowship of the mystery when doing so is fellowship?

    You say no, the fellowship of the mystery is not about fellowship with one another.

    I can concede some of that; as too often, one ends up working alongside fellow Believers where the relationship is more along the line of a husband and wife going through the motions "for the kid's sake..."

    That is is at times a necessary defeat.

    I'll concede that much.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    "for the kid's sake..."
    Another veiled slam? I hope not.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    ...

    It was between the Gentiles to whom Paul was first sent (Greeks) in the Acts period and Gentiles like the Ephesians (to whom Paul wrote the letter/Gentiles such as we) and Colossians to whom Paul was later sent.
    And here I'd thought the assertion of some that Paul is asserting we are now part of Israel was an extreme.

    You have ended up at another one. It's not even the flow of the passage.

    They were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel - strangers, foreigners.

    But now in Christ, this side of Israel's commonwealth.

    This is a spiritual issue as to their having been far off - it is not about Gentiles in some far off land - it is not about geography.

    Why would they have even known of, and why would Israel's commonwealth have even mattered if they were off in some foreign land away from all that?

    They were calling one another Circumcision and Uncircumcision as a derogatory, just as the Philistines and Israelites in David's day did - these Gentiles knew of Israel's God.

    And never mind that Paul preached at some of the synagogues in Ephesus.

    I'm not buying this enmity between Gentile and Gentile idea, heir - it is not the flow of the passage.

    Ephesians 2 is a short version of Romans 1-3; 9-11; and 15.

    Just as this...

    Romans 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

    Is Ephesians 2 and 3.

    He even mentions his awareness of their possession of a copy of what he had written about these same things before.

    Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    You see passages like this one from Romans 15:

    15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

    When Paul writes things like that, everyone concludes that Paul was preaching a prophesied gospel.

    But that is not what Paul is saying whenever he quotes such passages.

    Rather, as in 2 Cor. 3, Gal. 3; etc., Paul is doing something only the Lord Himself is found doing in Matt. thru John.

    He is extracting a principle contained within those passages he then applies in a different way.

    He constantly does this throughout his writings.

    The same principle in both aspects of God's Two-Fold Purpose, is different in application within each.

    Israel was promised the Holy Spirit - by "covenant unto them."

    The Gentile has said promise delivered unto him - the Spirit - but not by "covenant unto them."

    Is He the God of the Jews only?

    Same principle - same God - different application - different relationship.

    This is the thing that differs, that allows all the other things that differ "without controversy."

    Leave it out and one ends up with this understanding of yours.

    The Mystery itself is based on a principle found that is part of the Prophetic aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose and by which He allowed Himself to Interplan (sic) the one, in between the other, without breaking His "covenant unto them."

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    And here I'd thought the assertion of some that Paul is asserting we are now part of Israel was an extreme.

    You have ended up at another one. It's not even the flow of the passage.

    They were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel - strangers, foreigners.

    But now in Christ, this side of Israel's commonwealth.

    This is a spiritual issue as to their having been far off - it is not about Gentiles in some far off land - it is not about geography.

    Why would they have even known of, and why would Israel's commonwealth have even mattered if they were off in some foreign land away from all that?

    They were calling one another Circumcision and Uncircumcision as a derogatory, just as the Philistines and Israelites in David's day did - these Gentiles knew of Israel's God.

    And never mind that Paul preached at some of the synagogues in Ephesus.

    I'm not buying this enmity between Gentile and Gentile idea, heir - it is not the flow of the passage.

    Ephesians 2 is a short version of Romans 1-3; 9-11; and 15.

    Just as this...

    Romans 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

    Is Ephesians 2 and 3.

    He even mentions his awareness of their possession of a copy of what he had written about these same things before.

    Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    You see passages like this one from Romans 15:

    15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

    When Paul writes things like that, everyone concludes that Paul was preaching a prophesied gospel.

    But that is not what Paul is saying whenever he quotes such passages.

    Rather, as in 2 Cor. 3, Gal. 3; etc., Paul is doing something only the Lord Himself is found doing in Matt. thru John.

    He is extracting a principle contained within those passages he then applies in a different way.

    He constantly does this throughout his writings.

    The same principle in both aspects of God's Two-Fold Purpose, is different in application within each.

    Israel was promised the Holy Spirit - by "covenant unto them."

    The Gentile has said promise delivered unto him - the Spirit - but not by "covenant unto them."

    Is He the God of the Jews only?

    Same principle - same God - different application - different relationship.

    This is the thing that differs, that allows all the other things that differ "without controversy."

    Leave it out and one ends up with this understanding of yours.

    The Mystery itself is based on a principle found that is part of the Prophetic aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose and by which He allowed Himself to Interplan (sic) the one, in between the other, without breaking His "covenant unto them."
    The mystery of Ephesians 3 is not reiteration. It is the fellowship of the mystery: of Christ (a mystery hidden in the scriptures {Romans 16:25-26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV} , as in, "according to the scriptures" {1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV} to those in the commonwealth of Israel/in the promise {Acts 13:26 KJV, Galatians 3:29 KJV}

    and the mystery of the gospel; not made known unto the sons of men/revealed by the Spirit not "according to the scriptures"/unsearchable/hid in God the due time message to all men (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV)including Gentiles outside of the promise/in time past aliens and strangers {Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV}now made nigh {unto God not Israel!}by the cross {Ephesians 2:13 KJV}/fellowheirs by the gospel {Ephesians 3:6 KJV}.

    That is what is the fellowship of the mystery!

    Paul's letters are not reiteration as if the Lord only appeared once with one sending, but the promise of more than one and to different people. (Acts 26:16-17 KJV and Acts 22:17-21 KJV). Together they have fellowship in the one Body by the fellowship of the mystery!
    Last edited by heir; April 1st, 2016 at 11:12 PM.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    The "far off" of Ephesians 2 is also defined by Paul at the beginning of the chapter.

    And Paul basically preaches Ephesians 2 and Romans 1 thru 3 in Acts 17.

    And guess what? The distinction between Jew and Gentile is gone and all are nigh; all have access now...

    Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    You see that; he brings out the old, Pre-Romans 1-3 status principle - of one blood all nations...back when all "men began calling God" or, back when "all men" had had access...
    Last edited by Danoh; April 2nd, 2016 at 07:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    The middle wall of partition:


    Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

    Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

    Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

    Acts 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


    It was between the Gentiles to whom Paul was first sent (Greeks) in the Acts period and Gentiles like the Ephesians (to whom Paul wrote the letter/Gentiles such as we) and Colossians to whom Paul was later sent.
    Could the middle wall have been circumcision, going all the way back to Genesis 17?
    Last edited by musterion; April 2nd, 2016 at 10:02 AM.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    The Middle Wall of Partition or Separation was the Law; circumcision being a part of it...

    Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

    Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

    Acts 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

    It is why the continuance of animal sacrifices in the Millenium and why Paul submits to its cleansing rituals in Acts 21, after he's been among the Gentiles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    The Middle Wall of Partition or Separation was the Law; circumcision being a part of it...
    I can see that.
    Maybe more specifically ----- sin.

    The law greatly manifested sin.
    Rom 3:10
    1 John 3:4

    And the law condemns sinners.

    Gotta get rid of that condemnation, which would mean getting rid of the law that condemns.

    Romans 5 KJV
    (13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    Romans 4 KJV
    (15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.



    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    It does not say "Jews and Gentiles" (as that is not who the middle wall of partition was between) anymore than it says "at the cross".

    Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    ...and that He might reconcile both [Jew and Gentile] in one body by the cross
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Could the middle wall have been circumcision, going all the way back to Genesis 17?
    I don't think so. The middle wall of partition is strictly a Pauline term. It didn't even exist until Acts 15.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    ...and that He might reconcile both [Jew and Gentile] in one body by the cross
    That's not what it says. That's what you want it to say, but it doesn't.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    I took it right off your own post

    ...or you mean that fairytale about those who were near and those who were afar off
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    I took it right off your own post

    ...or you mean that fairytale about those who were near and those who were afar off
    No, you didn't. And you need not behave like a in here.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
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    One lavished upon in the Beloved
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    ...or you mean that fairytale about those who were near and those who were afar off
    Gentiles in the promise (nigh) Acts 13:26 KJV, Galatians 3:29 KJV

    and Gentiles in time past who were out/aliens and strangers ("far off"/"afar off")Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV

    There are Gentiles in both groups!


    Pretty simple stuff!
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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