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Thread: Battle Royale XIV discussion thread

  1. #1006
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    1 John 5:7 - 1 John 5:7 KJV -

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    Over 1000 post club Shasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    I've asked a couple of times, "What's it to you?" that I believe the KJB I hold in my hands and study from. I've yet to hear an answer as to how this is a bad thing. What harm does it cause to take God at His word believing every word as I 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV?

    Anyone?
    It means you will take what one translation says verbatim in English as infallible and you will not look deeper into the text by using some of the very easy-to-use language tools to confirm it. It may make you more secure to treat the KJV that way but it inhibits you from diligently searching for the truth as hidden treasures. It also gives you permission to ignore all other translations even when they might have more clearly and accurately represented the text. Aside from that, this whole story about the emergence of the Cambridge edition of the KJV is extra-Biblical. Nowhere is it alluded to in scripture and, at no time did the translators of any edition claim that it was infallible. That comforting story is nothing more than a myth discovered through personal revelation.

  3. #1008
    Veteran brandplucked's Avatar
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    Typical Bible Agnostic Dodge

    Originally Posted by brandplucked View Post
    I have a hard copy of the Geneva King James Version bible. Actually, it kept changing over the years, so they are not all the same, but though it was a pretty good bible it most certainly was NOT the finished product
    I fixed that for you, and you are welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I fixed that for you, and you are welcome.


    (in case you ask whether I read the article, I just have to ask you whether you actually read the Battle Royale you participated in)
    No, Will. You "fixed" nothing. I wrote Geneva bible and that is what I meant. I have a hard copy of the GENEVA bible and it kept changing over the years.

    And all you are doing here is what all bible agnostics and pretenders do, you are dodging the question.

    Here is the question you keep refusing to actually answer.


    “Do you believe there IS such a thing as a complete and inerrant Bible in any language, translated or untranslated? If you do, can you show me a copy of it, or tell me exactly which one it is, so I can go out and get one too? Yes or No?
    *
    If you do not believe there is such a thing as an inerrant Bible, are you honest enough to admit it?”
    *

    Can you SHOW US A COPY of this "the Greek manuscripts" you keep telling us IS your final authority?

    No, you can't and you won't. You guys are still referring to your Santa Claus version.

  4. #1009
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart View Post
    Thanks D.R. for this, for your prediction, now fulfilled, and for your gracious words toward Heir and STP.

    I'm on a phone that I don't quite know how to navigate on, but someone said I should see on of your previous posts analyzing the debate. Was it that prediction perhaps?
    Bob, I am not sure how to answer that because I can't see what your phone looks like. In the post you responded to, you should see the link to the first post I made in the thread. There should be a blue button at the top of the citation which you can press to go to the post itself. But I have made a large number of posts in the grandstands so I wouldn't know which one the other person was referring to unless it was just that one. When you get to a proper computer, you can do a search on my recent posts by clicking on my name.

    By the way, I decided to add a permanent link to a page of posts which I thought were interesting at the bottom of my signature on each post now. So you can click on that too if you want.
    Last edited by Desert Reign; November 12th, 2015 at 10:30 AM.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

  5. #1010
    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Even the Revised Standard Mayberry Version that Andy, Barn, and Gome believed?
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

    It is true that Trump does not fit modern Republican principles, but that is because modern Republican principles have strayed far from conservatism. genuineoriginal

  6. #1011
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brandplucked View Post
    No, Will. You "fixed" nothing.
    I am not Will.
    That is your name, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by brandplucked View Post
    I wrote Geneva bible and that is what I meant.
    Yes, and I fixed the mistaken intention to disparage one translation of the Bible without applying the same measure to the one you use.
    You have admitted that the KJV has changed over the years in the Battle Royale.
    Do you need me to find the quote?

    Quote Originally Posted by brandplucked View Post
    I have a hard copy of the GENEVA bible and it kept changing over the years.
    Thank you for the clarification that you are talking about the one copy of the Geneva Bible that you have in your possession.
    You need to take better care of that one hard copy since you claim that the words in that one copy keep changing over the years.
    I have no way of confirming that the words in that one copy have been changing over the years.

    However, if you are claiming that the different printings of the Geneva Bible have differences in the words, then the exact same complaint can be levied against the King James Bible.

    After all, it was you that pointed out that "sinne" was changed to "sin" from one printing to the next.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  7. #1012
    Over 1000 post club Shasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    See, I'm not in the camp that no other Bibles are inspired, I believe they are inferior. To say the KJV is the ONLY God inspired bible today would be inaccurate, that's just my opinion. I forsake other versions in favor of my KJV Bibles. That's why I said the KJV won and not a person(s).
    On what basis do you believe the KJV is the best translation? Have you investigated all reputed errors in the KJV and measured them against those in other translations - or do you believe it "by faith." It makes a difference. The first way of knowing is a conclusion reached through deliberation of the mind, The second, as far as I can tell, is a leap of faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God but there is nothing about the KJV in the word of God so the source of this idea must come from another origin.

  8. #1013
    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    It means you will take what one translation says verbatim in English as infallible and you will not look deeper into the text by using some of the very easy-to-use language tools to confirm it. It may make you more secure to treat the KJV that way but it inhibits you from diligently searching for the truth as hidden treasures. It also gives you permission to ignore all other translations even when they might have more clearly and accurately represented the text. Aside from that, this whole story about the emergence of the Cambridge edition of the KJV is extra-Biblical. Nowhere is it alluded to in scripture and, at no time did the translators of any edition claim that it was infallible. That comforting story is nothing more than a myth discovered through personal revelation.
    Amazing how similar this way of thinking is to the atheist/agnostic argument.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

    It is true that Trump does not fit modern Republican principles, but that is because modern Republican principles have strayed far from conservatism. genuineoriginal

  9. #1014
    Journeyman GodsfreeWill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Why would I want to argue with you for believing you had the pure words of the Lord? That's what an unbeliever would do.

    Why would I want to attempt to talk you out of taking God at His word? Why would you? What's it to you if someone believes they have the pure words of the Lord?
    So if a Christian says he believes his NIV contains the pure words of the Lord, you are content and happy?
    "Ignorance sustained by denial is crippling this nation's response to abortion. When something is so horrifying that we can't stand to look at it, perhaps we shouldn't be tolerating it." -Gregg Cunningham (Center for Bio-Ethical Reform)

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    Journeyman GodsfreeWill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    I wouldn't even try.
    Why is that?
    "Ignorance sustained by denial is crippling this nation's response to abortion. When something is so horrifying that we can't stand to look at it, perhaps we shouldn't be tolerating it." -Gregg Cunningham (Center for Bio-Ethical Reform)

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    On what basis do you believe the KJV is the best translation? Have you investigated all reputed errors in the KJV and measured them against those in other translations - or do you believe it "by faith." It makes a difference. The first way of knowing is a conclusion reached through deliberation of the mind, The second, as far as I can tell, is a leap of faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God but there is nothing about the KJV in the word of God so the source of this idea must come from another origin.
    Saying that the KJB is better than other translations or that it even is the best translation is a tactical retreat to save face now that they cannot argue anymore that it is inerrant which has been disproved.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

  12. #1017
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    This is true.
    But, what if it is inerrant?

    Take the challenge, read it/study it for a few months, believe every word, and allow the Spirit to prove it to you.

    It has been shown to contain errors. I have also read it, athough I don't think it was cover to cover. The first Bible I read was probably the Douay-Reims or it might have been the Knox. I remember reading at least some quite long sections of the KJB and making a conscious decision that although it was a decent translation, if I was to get the best from reading the Bible then I should better read a more modern translation. And do take note that I am a very educated and fluent language speaker and I have no trouble reading the KJV or Chaucer and I will have no hesitation in seeing what a couple of different French translations had to say about some passage or the original texts or some other language if I felt I needed clarification. So my decision to read the Bible in the NASB or other translation had nothing to do with not being able to understand the KJB. I probably understand it better than most modern English speakers. But I'm afraid that knowing X version is inerrant or Y% better or more accurate than version C isn't what it is all about. What I wanted was interaction. Something can be perfect pristine clean and yet be lifeless.
    The Spirit itself does not ask us to believe every word uncritically. Indeed it asks us to test the spirits and to hold fast to that which is good. This is why I read the New Testament in the original Greek and why I usually have a Hebrew Old Testament handy when reading that too.

    I also have another issue generally about reading the Bible - unfortunately for the KJVO position it is one which constitutes yet another refutation of their belief.
    It is this: that the Bible is not a set of doctrines or truths to be believed. It is a text to interact with. It is a text for the Spirit to give enlightenment through, it is a text which is useful for training in righteousness. Very occasionally something in it is explicitly stated to be an authoritative truth to be believed but this is really very rare. So the issue of it being inerrant is rather a red herring. It's a great fuss about nothing.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

  13. #1018
    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    The "Like" button is my new freedom, my voting privelege. I will not relinquish my freedom of choice.

    Don't tell me there is nothing new under the sun or that the word of God was settled in my language 400 years ago. I will make that determination for myself thank you very much. The very fact that you are telling me these things proves that you are wrong. The Like button does exist. My bliss is in my own opinions and techno-modernity is giving me the ability to validate myself effortlessly.

    Discipline is nothing. Knowledge is overrated. There are Apps for that. All I need to know of English is wrapped up in one word: LIKE. Everything else is taken care of for me.
    Oh, and thumbs up is good to.

    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

    It is true that Trump does not fit modern Republican principles, but that is because modern Republican principles have strayed far from conservatism. genuineoriginal

  14. #1019
    Gold level Subscriber Bob Enyart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    On what basis do you believe the KJV is the best translation? Have you investigated all reputed errors in the KJV and measured them against those in other translations - or do you believe it "by faith." It makes a difference. The first way of knowing is a conclusion reached through deliberation of the mind, The second, as far as I can tell, is a leap of faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God but there is nothing about the KJV in the word of God so the source of this idea must come from another origin.
    Good points Shasta. Thanks!
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

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  16. #1020
    Gold level Subscriber Bob Enyart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    Saying that the KJB is better than other translations or that it even is the best translation is a tactical retreat to save face now that they cannot argue anymore that it is inerrant which has been disproved.
    Yes. Perhaps eventually someone will make a list of the concessions/admissions made by the KJO side in the debate. Will Duffy and I would love to post that in the debate.

    - Bob E.
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Bob Enyart For Your Post:

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