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Thread: Noah's Ark & post-flood speciation

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    Question Noah's Ark & post-flood speciation

    According to Genesis 6:19-20, Noah was instructed to take male and female pairs of every "kind" of animal that walked the face of the earth. Several questions came to my mind about this, and I am wondering how those who take this story at its literal face value can answer them:

    1) How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?

    2) How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?

    3) How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?

    Thanks in advance to anyone who offers answers to these questions!

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    1) How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?

    2) How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?

    3) How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?

    Thanks in advance to anyone who offers answers to these questions!
    1. The answer is in the text. The number is not relevant.

    2. Not relevant.

    3. Not relevant.

    And by not relevant, I am referring to your attempt to discredit the Holy words of God in the Bible.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Thanks for your answers to those questions, Nick.

    If anyone else would like to participate, I would appreciate it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    Thanks for your answers to those questions, Nick.

    If anyone else would like to participate, I would appreciate it!
    1. The answer is in the text. The number is not relevant.

    2. Not relevant.

    3. Not relevant.

    And by not relevant, I am referring to your attempt to discredit the Holy words of God in the Bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    1. The answer is in the text. The number is not relevant.

    2. Not relevant.

    3. Not relevant.

    And by not relevant, I am referring to your attempt to discredit the Holy words of God in the Bible.
    Thanks for your answers to those questions, Nick.

    If anyone else would like to participate, I would appreciate it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    According to Genesis 6:19-20, Noah was instructed to take male and female pairs of every "kind" of animal that walked the face of the earth. Several questions came to my mind about this, and I am wondering how those who take this story at its literal face value can answer them:

    1) How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?
    Not too many since I think the flood was local. It was mostly focused on saving domestic animals as evidenced by taking seven of each.

    2) How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?
    About two million have been described by science. There's estimated to be up to 10 million. Of course that includes a lot of microorganisms.

    But on the earth today there are approximately:
    300,000 species of flowering plants.
    5000 species of mammals
    10,000 species of birds
    8,000 species of reptiles
    30,000 species of fish
    950,000 species of insects

    3) How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?
    Estimated run up to 5 billion species have ever existed.

    But when we look at diversity - the current number of species is larger than at any time in the past. But most of the species in the past are not the same species alive today.


    “We do not believe in God because we need to explain this or that feature of the world. That is what science is for. We believe in God because we see something deeper in the world, something that transcends the scientific explanations.” - Karl Giberson Ph.D.

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    The Biologos Foundation - The science and faith of theistic evolution explained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    According to Genesis 6:19-20, Noah was instructed to take male and female pairs of every "kind" of animal that walked the face of the earth. Several questions came to my mind about this, and I am wondering how those who take this story at its literal face value can answer them:

    1) How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?

    2) How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?

    3) How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?

    Thanks in advance to anyone who offers answers to these questions!
    1. Most of them. Whatever a ship of that size could carry.

    2. Scientists do not know what a species is, so they have no clue.

    3. Given (2.), this is even more remote.

    All this to give you comfort that your decision to reject God's word is a good choice. Given (2.) and (3.) a rational person would worry about their position even on a scientific level, but I'm sure you will feel emboldened instead.
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    How many different "kinds" of animals do you estimate were taken aboard Noah's ark?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    Most of them. Whatever a ship of that size could carry.
    According to Answers in Genesis (who are building a replica of the ark), there were approximately 8,000 "kinds" which Noah took aboard the ark.

    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    How many different species do scientists estimate to exist today?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    Scientists do not know what a species is, so they have no clue.
    I'm willing to accept this definition:
    A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms where two hybrids are capable of reproducing fertile offspring, typically using sexual reproduction.
    If Noah took 8,000 "kinds" of animals aboard the ark, how is it that we have an estimated 6.5 million species of terrestrial animals in existence today? Did 8,000 kinds of animals from Noah's ark branch out into 6.5 million species over the course of 4,500 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    How many species are believed to have existed throughout the entirety of earth's existence?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    Given (2.), this is even more remote.
    As I mentioned above, the latest estimate for the number of extant terrestrial species is 6.5 million. However, most species that have existed on the earth are now extinct. The present figure of 6.5 million extant land species is thought to represent only 1 percent of the total number of species that have existed throughout earth's history. This means that upwards of 650 million land species have existed or are existing on earth.

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    It was plenty of room

    "For the sake of realism, imagine waiting at a railroad crossing while ten freight trains, each pulling 52 boxcars, move slowly by, one after another. That is how much space was available in the Ark, for its capacity was equivalent to 520 modern railroad stock cars. A barge of such gigantic size, with its thousands of built-in compartments (Gen. 6:14) would have been sufficiently large to carry two of every species of air-breathing animal in the world today (and doubtless the tendency toward taxonomic splitting has produced more “species” than can be justified in terms of Genesis “kinds”) on only half of its available deck space. The remaining space would have been occupied by Noah’s family, five additional representatives of each of the comparatively few kinds of animals acceptable for sacrifice, two each of the kinds that have become extinct since the Flood, and food for them all (Gen. 6:21) [1973, p. 23, emp. in orig.].

    Whitcomb and Morris investigated the numbers of animals that would have been on the ark (using the highest possible estimates, and taxonomic figures provided by evolutionists), and showed that the biblical account can fit known scientific facts regarding these matters (1961, pp. 65-69). Their book, The Genesis Flood, was published in 1961. Thirty-five years later, John Woodmorappe expanded on their work, and produced what is likely the most exhaustive, well-researched feasibility study ever put into print dealing specifically with the ark’s construction and contents (1996). His data-based conclusions established beyond any doubt that the ark could do what it was designed to do. Since God was the Creator of all the animals, does it not make sense that He would know precisely how much room was needed for them on the ark?"
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...3&article=1413
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Since God was the Creator of all the animals, does it not make sense that He would know precisely how much room was needed for them on the ark?"
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...3&article=1413
    yes, i agree. but what about all the plants/vegetation ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    John Woodmorappe expanded on their work, and produced what is likely the most exhaustive, well-researched feasibility study ever put into print dealing specifically with the ark’s construction and contents (1996). His data-based conclusions established beyond any doubt that the ark could do what it was designed to do. Since God was the Creator of all the animals, does it not make sense that He would know precisely how much room was needed for them on the ark?"
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...3&article=1413
    "Woodmorappe attacks the problems of the ark in a systematic fashion. He begins by calculating how many animals were on the ark. Woodmorappe uses the genera as the equivalent of the created kind. Taking one pair from each genera, living and fossil, he lists 7,428 mammals, 4,602 birds and 3,724 reptiles on the ark." -- http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/woodmorappe-review.html

    One difficulty with this claim is that according to Genesis 7:2-3, Noah was instructed to take 7 pairs of every clean animal, and 1 pair of unclean animals.

    Going by Woodmorappe's estimate, there were 15,754 "kinds" of animals on the ark. So how do we get to an estimated 6.5 million terrestrial species today? Also, how do we account for all of the extinct species, whose numbers are estimated to be in the hundreds of millions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    If Noah took 8,000 "kinds" of animals aboard the ark, how is it that we have an estimated 6.5 million species of terrestrial animals in existence today? Did 8,000 kinds of animals from Noah's ark branch out into 6.5 million species over the course of 4,500 years?
    Have you noticed that speciation is related mainly to generation time and number of offspring per generation? (there are other factors)

    For humans, this averages around 25 years for 3-4 offspring.
    For fruit flies, it is around 12 days for 400 offspring.

    There is still only one species of human and over 5000 species of fruit flies.

    Additionally, if the Bible is accurate (and I believe it is), the kinds taken on the Ark had a much greater potential for variation than the diluted versions of today. Technically, one generation is all that is needed to produce a new species.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    Technically, one generation is all that is needed to produce a new species.
    Let's run the math. I'll use Woodmorappe's estimate of 15,754 "kinds" of animals on the ark, and the estimate of 6.5 million land species existing today. Also, let's assume that the Flood occurred 4,500 years ago. Based on these numbers, an average of 4 new species would have had to have been bred into existence every day over the past 4,500 years for us to get to the present estimate of 6.5 million extant terrestrial species (assuming my math is correct, which it may not be). Furthermore, this does not even begin to take into account the hundreds of millions of species that are now extinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    According to Answers in Genesis
    And there is your problem. According to Genesis....now fill in the blanks.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    yes, i agree. but what about all the plants/vegetation ?
    What about them?
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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