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Thread: sin/sins is not the issue today!

  1. #391
    Over 1000 post club Shasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Jesus was speaking to JEWS who HAD to do the ceremonial works and were obeying the ceremonial works, but those works were going to be soon fulfilled by Jesus. Those works were no longer going to be required but having faith in Jesus' blood was going to be required.

    We still have to obey Jesus' commands but we no longer have to do the ceremonial works because now we only have to believe his blood cleans us.

    The ceremonial works cleaned them.
    The ceremonies of the law, washing and sacrifice revealed their sin, convicted their consciences and invited them to repent; however the ceremonies never cleansed anyone. Some OT believers understood this:

    6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
    My ears You have opened;
    Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
    7Then I said, “Behold, I come;
    In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
    8 I delight to do Your will, O my God;
    Your Law is within my heart.”

    Psalm 40:6-8

    Only the sacrifice of Christ was able to cleanse the human soul. Hebrews says that the very fact they had to keep sacrificing year after year showed the inadequacy of that system.

    1 The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, NOT the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would not the offerings have ceased? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all and would no longer feel the guilt of their sins. 3 Instead, those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sins (Hebrews 10:1-4).


    Some people think Jesus came preaching the law just in a better way. However Jesus Himself said He did not come to patch up the old Mosaic system. He said new patches cannot be sewn onto an old garment. He brought new wine which could not be put into the old skins(Matthew 9:16-17). What He said was radical enough to tear the fabric of the old system apart

    Of major components of the law such as the temple and its ceremonies, thedietary law and Sabbath-keeping, Jesus said:

    6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:6-8)

    When the Pharisees rebuked him because he allowed his disciples to eat without ritually washing their hands, Jesus gave them a lesson in how they had violated deeper more essential principles (Mark 7:5-10).

    About the dietary laws He said:

    It's not what goes into your body that defiles you; you are defiled by what comes from your heart" (Mark 7:15)

    Jesus did not come to tell the Jews to be better Jews and keep the law more perfectly. Such a message not have been Good News but yesterday's bad news, for the Law had never brought liberty and real cleansing of the heart and conscience. Only Jesus and not the priests had the "power on earth to forgive sins"

  2. #392
    Over 1000 post club Jamie Gigliotti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    "Clueless as to what happened 2000 years ago and why"~john w

    What is the gospel of your salvation, Jamie?
    Here it is clear as day.

    "For the Grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self controlled, upright and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the Glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own posession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:11-14

    Amen!

  3. #393
    Over 1000 post club Shasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    We are identified with Him and in Him and by His faith. That's how we can know and say:

    2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    And just what part of complete in Him (Colossians 2:10 KJV) are you struggling with?
    The first time we identified with His death was when we were first saved, however that was an initiation into a walk. Paul said,

    Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry (Colossians 3:5NASB).

    Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry (Colossians 3:5ESV).

    Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry (Colossians 3:5NIV)..

    He is talking about the need for believers to deal decisively with the desires of the body that lead us to sin. If this were a once for all action that occurred in the beginning of our walk only there would be no need to exhort believers to do continue to do it. Note that he is not saying they are doing these things only that when they are tempted (as they most certainly would be) they should take this course of action and continue to identify with His death. Just as temptations will never cease so we must continue to practice identification with His death. He never says the desires of the earthly nature cease only that we must put a stop to it.

    That is my view and I am not struggling with that. Your view is what - that it happens once and you do not have to put to death the old nature ever again?

    Historically your interpretation of 2 Timothy 2:13 was rejected by all the orthodox teachers, Apologists and theologians of Christianity until John Calvin. This is remarkable in itself since most people believe the belief has always been around. The first Anabaptists did not believe it, not even Augustine with his dogmatic belief in predestination believed in unconditional eternal security as it is now taught. Evidence of the universal agreement that apostasy was a real possibility for believers is abundant for anyone who cares to search it out in the writings of early Christianity. While you will no doubt claim that the Bible teaches it, histoically the hermeneutic was post hoc. It was formulated to support the Calvin's belief in God's absolute control over man's destiny.

  4. #394
    TOL Legend serpentdove's Avatar
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    1 Jn 3:9, Jas 1:22

    What's new?
    PlastikBuddah [aka Gamera] make-believer. Kmoney [aka Count Iblis] make-believer. Alate_One deceives students in the classroom. Arthur Brain wants answers. Eph 5:11

    "Being a square keeps you from going around in circles." ~ J Vernon McGee Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13.

  5. #395
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    Look at it the other way. Many times Abraham really did not begin to have true faith UNTIL He acted upon what God had told Him. For instance, what would have happened if God had told him "leave your father's house and come to a land I will show you" and Abraham had refused to leave? His inaction would prove that he did not really have faith in God. Leaving for Canaan was an ACT of faith. Had he stayed in UR Canaan would have remained an unrealized dream. He never would have received it as his inheritance.

    Or what if when God said "Bring your only son Isaac and sacrifice him" Abraham refused to do so? Then he would have failed the test and his covenant with God would not have been ratified. Abraham chose to raise the knife over his son only because he believed that God would resurrect him from the dead and fulfill His promise (Hebrews 11:19) but the ACT of sacrificing his son was an act of faith.

    In both instances faith and obedience were inseparable. Many times, faith was not faith until he acted on it. When Abraham walked with God he was not trying to earn points with God. His "obedience" was in choosing to ACT in faith on the basis of God's spoken word. Some people might say "it was BECAUSE he had faith that he acted." It could also be said that his faith was not real UNTIL he acted or, as James put it, "faith without works (a response) is dead."

    Paul puts faith and obedience together. He even said the purpose of his ministry was to

    bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, (Romans 1:5)

    The "works" of the Pharisees were not responses of faith. They were their own attempts to make themselves righteous before God (and in the eyes of other people). Abraham's was not going by any playbook, nor was he TRYING to be righteous. Abraham's "works" were hischoices to actively respond to what God had told him. True faith is not just mental belief. It inspires the choices we make.
    I am glad you agree with me, but you should humble yourself and say so, or else it sounds as if you are going against me and are trying to prove the truth that I said as being false.

    Faith without works is dead, and there is no if and or but about it.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  6. #396
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    "Clueless as to what happened 2000 years ago and why"~john w

    What is the gospel of your salvation, Jamie?
    People misunderstand Paul about no works. No works is about the ceremonial works and not about not having to obey Jesus and abstain from evil.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  7. #397
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    The ceremonies of the law, washing and sacrifice revealed their sin, convicted their consciences and invited them to repent; however the ceremonies never cleansed anyone. Some OT believers understood this:

    6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
    My ears You have opened;
    Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
    7Then I said, “Behold, I come;
    In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
    8 I delight to do Your will, O my God;
    Your Law is within my heart.”

    Psalm 40:6-8
    This is where you start to lose sight of the truth. Sacrifices and burnt offerings might not have been what God desired---BUT GOD COMMANDED IT.
    The Jews could not go to the tent and later the temple to worship God if they did not clean themselves. God's Spirit was among them. God's Spirit was in the tent, and in the temple.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    Only the sacrifice of Christ was able to cleanse the human soul. Hebrews says that the very fact they had to keep sacrificing year after year showed the inadequacy of that system.

    1 The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, NOT the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would not the offerings have ceased? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all and would no longer feel the guilt of their sins. 3 Instead, those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sins (Hebrews 10:1-4).


    Some people think Jesus came preaching the law just in a better way. However Jesus Himself said He did not come to patch up the old Mosaic system. He said new patches cannot be sewn onto an old garment. He brought new wine which could not be put into the old skins(Matthew 9:16-17). What He said was radical enough to tear the fabric of the old system apart

    Of major components of the law such as the temple and its ceremonies, thedietary law and Sabbath-keeping, Jesus said:

    6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, andnot sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:6-8)

    When the Pharisees rebuked him because he allowed his disciples to eat without ritually washing their hands, Jesus gave them a lesson in how they had violated deeper more essential principles (Mark 7:5-10).

    About the dietary laws He said:

    It's not what goes into your body that defiles you; you are defiled by what comes from your heart" (Mark 7:15)

    Jesus did not come to tell the Jews to be better Jews and keep the law more perfectly. Such a message not have been Good News but yesterday's bad news, for the Law had never brought liberty and real cleansing of the heart and conscience. Only Jesus and not the priests had the "power on earth to forgive sins"
    We do not have to do the ceremonial works of the law anymore because we are cleaned now by faith in Jesus’ blood.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  8. #398
    Over 1000 post club Shasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serpentdove View Post
    1 Jn 3:9, Jas 1:22
    1 John 3:9 uses the Greek linear present tense for the word "sins" meaning that the sin is habitual or continuous, a way of life.

    Here is how it reads in other versions


    ESV
    No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

    NASB
    No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    NIV
    No one who has been born from God practices sin, because God's seed abides in him. Indeed, he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born from God.

    Berean Literal Bible
    Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God.

    The purpose of John's letter is to combat the Docetists, a cult who believed that because divine knowledge had been planted in them nothing they did was sin. Because of this some lived immoral lives. In his letter John makes the point that God's nature of light (holiness and truth) is incompatible with the deeds of darkness (moral wickedness and deception). When the new life is planted in us it will motivate us to do the things that are in accordance with God's nature.

    At the same time, he is not saying believers do not sin at all 1 John 2:1 says

    My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But IF anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

    In this verse the highlighted words "does sin" is the same verb for sin only it is in the past not the present tense. Since the sentence begins with "IF" we know that it is a hypothetical and has not actually happened yet. In Greek, when the main verb of a hypothetical sentence is in the past (aorist) tense it means that the action "sin" is NOT repetitive. Therefore it is talking about committing A sin not living in sin.

    John does not expect Christians to continue living in sin once they have converted. At the same time neither does he think it is impossible for them to sin.

    Like John, James is calling believers to live out their faith and not just think about it (James 1:22)

    NET
    But be sure you live out the message and do not merely listen to it and so deceive yourselves.

    NIV
    Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

    James is not talking about performing meritorious works for salvation. He encouraging them to have an active faith and avoid being hypocritical.

    James and John are both talking about the effect of walking in the Spirit is supposed has on our lifestyle. Having the Spirit inside, guiding us, enabling us to walk in his ways is the promise of the New Covenant foretold by the prophets, realized by Jesus and celebrated at the Lord's Supper.

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