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Thread: Was Jesus real?

  1. #91
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    Weighing evidence means to take into consideration everything available to get to the conclusion of whether or not to accept the fact(s) stated; not rejecting something out-of-hand with just a cursory glance at one tiny portion of what one has in front of them.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    Over 6000 post club PureX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Weighing evidence means to take into consideration everything available to get to the conclusion of whether or not to accept the fact(s) stated; not rejecting something out-of-hand with just a cursory glance at one tiny portion of what one has in front of them.
    Well, the 'portion' you presented is over-stated and weakly reasoned.

    Personally, I don't feel any need to come to a conclusion about this question of Jesus' authenticity. For one thing, it's not going to be possible for me to ever arrive at anything but an opinion, anyway, as I was not there to see for myself, and there is too little evidence, now, to arrive at any degree of certainty. And for another, I don't feel that it matters much who or what Jesus was, or what exactly happened to him.

    Even if Jesus stood right in front of me, told me he was God on Earth, and that he was raised from the dead, how would I be able to tell that what I was seeing and hearing was not some trick of my own imagination, or some clever trick or con by persons unknown, or perhaps a space alien, or even some demon, trying to use my own beliefs against me? And even if I assume it's all true, what does any of it really mean to me, anyway? Myself and my life would remain the same, regardless.

    But none of that's going to happen, and it doesn't matter, anyway. Because for me, what matters are the ideals and promises that the story of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection convey to us; to me. And those ideals CAN be tested to determine whether or not they are helpful and true. All it takes is a little faith.

    And I have tested those ideals, and I have found that they 'work' for me. And I have found that the promises accompanying those ideals do manifest, here and now, in my own life. And for me, that's good enough. I don't need to believe in divine beings walking the Earth, or supernatural 'miracles' and people returning from the dead. All I need is to keep trusting in the ideals Jesus preached, and I find the promises he made to us about those ideals do manifest. The story of the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth has taught me what I believe it was intended to teach me, and I have received the message and the blessings it brings. So the historical factuality of it is mostly irrelevant to me.

    I still have my opinions about it, but that's all they are. And even if my opinions change, that won't change my faith in the ideals of Christ's message.

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  4. #93
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    True: all we have of God is by faith... we believe in Him, even though none of us have ever seen Him. Truth is, though: what we see of Him, by faith, is more real than the things that we see with our eyes, since these things we see with the eyes of our faith are eternal and what our eyes perceive are temporal. The Spirit of God is more real to me than my own knowledge or understanding. He is more personal to me than I am to myself. I trust Him more than I trust me. I expect great things in my life, because He is with me. I am no longer alive, but Christ lives in me.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    Over 500 post club jzeidler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Dr. Simon Greenleaf, a professor of law and once considered the world's foremost authority on evidence in jurisprudence and one of the founders of Harvard Law School would greatly disagree with you. His book, "The Testimony of the Evangelists: The Gospels Examined by the Rules of Evidence," explains all the reasons why. An excerpt from his book can be found HERE. You should get a copy. You can download it for free or order a paper copy from Amazon. This quote is from the opening forward on the above mentioned page: "Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all the myths at the heart of Christianity. But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable, and that the resurrection did in fact happen."

    Looks like I know which book in reading next thanks Aimiel.

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    You're welcome. He was an atheist and was convinced by his friends that he should weigh the evidence found in Scripture to de-bunk The Bible. He not only found the evidence to be there and be true, but he came to know Jesus as Lord and God.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    1 - This is an example of what I tell people on TOL all the time, it's their own scripture that blinds the Jews, they have also been indoctrinated into the false teaching that the writings of holy men, some more holy than others, are actually the writings of God.

    2 - I find it sooooo frustrating that so many sincere and faithful people like Ben are literally not allowed to think beyond the bondage of the Priestly authors (and redactors) of scripture.

    3 - In the narratives of Jesus he had alluded to the necessity of leaving and life after death on several occasions, so Ben is just flat wrong on this issue.

    4 - But I also believe that some of the apostles didn't believe the reports until they saw it with their own eyes which is frankly understandable.
    1 - Jesus himself said that the writings of God is the Truth given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. (John 17:17; Psalm 147:19,20)

    2 - Caino, I am not a Christian who is not allowed to think beyond what is dictated by Paul. I am free to walk by sight and to think for myself and decide according to my understanding. (II Cor. 5:7)

    3 - If I am wrong on this issue, so were Prophet Isaiah, King David and Job. (Isa. 26:14; II Sam. 12:23 and Job 10:21)

    4 - What did the apostles of Jesus see Caino with their own eyes? Would you remind me with? Did they see any evidence from the afterlife? They, for instance, denied the report of Mary Magdalene because they could not believe there was an afterlife. (Luke 24:11)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    True: all we have of God is by faith... we believe in Him, even though none of us have ever seen Him. Truth is, though: what we see of Him, by faith, is more real than the things that we see with our eyes, since these things we see with the eyes of our faith are eternal and what our eyes perceive are temporal. The Spirit of God is more real to me than my own knowledge or understanding. He is more personal to me than I am to myself. I trust Him more than I trust me. I expect great things in my life, because He is with me. I am no longer alive, but Christ lives in me.
    Well Aimiel, not every one who believes in God, do it by faith. I do it by Logic. The Logic that something cannot cause itself to exist and through the Physical concept of Causality which cannot go back ad infinitum.

  9. #98
    TOL Subscriber Zeke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    "Reject?" I don't even consider him. If you want me to consider him seriously, then provide some evidence for your claims. Then I can accept or reject him, or more precisely, your myths about him.

    The default isn't "Christianity is true", and more than "Islam is true", or "Bahai is true". You need to provide the evidence.
    You should include the Jewish religion along with the above, The observational proof isn't there nor is it supposed to be Luke 17:20-21, the peniel gland is the only place on can see the Divine world Gen 32:30.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

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    1 - Jesus himself said that the writings of God is the Truth given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. (John 17:17; Psalm 147:19,20)
    No he did not, he said "The Word", the Living word of God in the heart of man. You assume he was referring to the "written word" of the priest.

    2 - Caino, I am not a Christian who is not allowed to think beyond what is dictated by Paul. I am free to walk by sight and to think for myself and decide according to my understanding. (II Cor. 5:7)
    I'm not a followers of Paul, his ideas contaminated and confused the religion that grew up about Jesus.

    3 - If I am wrong on this issue, so were Prophet Isaiah, King David and Job. (Isa. 26:14; II Sam. 12:23 and Job 10:21)
    Isa 26:14 is about the final judgment of the unrepentant not a general statement about life for the saved? Any honest Rabi would concede that.

    4 - What did the apostles of Jesus see Caino with their own eyes? Would you remind me with? Did they see any evidence from the afterlife? They, for instance, denied the report of Mary Magdalene because they could not believe there was an afterlife. (Luke 24:11)
    The apostles were often confused but teachable. After they visited with the resurrected Christ, they had such a change of heart that they went forward into persecution even giving their own lives.

    "Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evil doing of his ancestors."UB

  11. #100
    TOL Subscriber Zeke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post
    1 - Jesus himself said that the writings of God is the Truth given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. (John 17:17; Psalm 147:19,20)

    2 - Caino, I am not a Christian who is not allowed to think beyond what is dictated by Paul. I am free to walk by sight and to think for myself and decide according to my understanding. (II Cor. 5:7)

    3 - If I am wrong on this issue, so were Prophet Isaiah, King David and Job. (Isa. 26:14; II Sam. 12:23 and Job 10:21)

    4 - What did the apostles of Jesus see Caino with their own eyes? Would you remind me with? Did they see any evidence from the afterlife? They, for instance, denied the report of Mary Magdalene because they could not believe there was an afterlife. (Luke 24:11)
    Luke 17:20-21 the same message as 2Cor 5:7, 1Cor 3:16, The no Jew or Gentile remarks by Paul, is the torn in the Jewish pride parade.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

  12. #101
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    So, it seems that chair doesn't know what evidence he would expect to find if the gospels were true.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzeidler View Post
    What is your opinion? Was there a historical Jesus? If so who was he? If not what evidence do you have that Jesus wasn't real. Keep the discussion civil. I look forward to reading your posts.
    How can something with the first Conscience thought in eternity with no beginning or ending really have a singular history that excludes everyone else that came out of that Conscience creation from its self? which is the spark/seed of eternity placed in mans conscience being yet unable to see through this world/shadows/a glass darkly into eternity, intellectually it is impossible for the senses of man seeking in the shadows to find it Luke 17:20-21.

    The Sages and Servants of the Ancient of days knew the message/Jesus/the way was about the inward Journey seen only within Gen 32:30, which is exactly the place one finds this motif played out by Jesus who represented the Divine birth in a man, who sadly has become an Idol of pagan flesh and blood sacrifice instead of the Way back to where all Conscience creations began.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    And it looks like another 1600 won't change things either. I have yet to hear anything here that is even remotely worth looking at.
    What evidence do you have about what you did a year ago on Aug 13, 2014?

    Show us or were you standing still the whole day long that day?

    History as a category of truth is mostly unsupported by evidence. It's a matter of witnessing. By nature it is so.

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    Over 500 post club RevTestament's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Ain't nothing to see. If you have something- let me know.
    I have YHWH Elohim the servant of El Elyon, His only perfect servant Isa 42:19 who made the law honorable, v.21, as He lived it in truth and not blindness.

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    Over 2000 post club OCTOBER23's Avatar
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    JUST WAIT TILL 2025 AND YOU CAN MEET JESUS FACE TO FACE IN THE KINGDOM.

    TOL FOREVER !!!

    yeah baby.

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