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Thread: Why I Don't Believe in Calvinism or Predestination

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    Why I Don't Believe in Calvinism or Predestination

    Calvinism is in direct conflict with the Bible the Gospel and justification by faith.

    There are just to many scriptures that I would have to reject to become a Calvinist. Here are some of them.

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

    I believe that John was closer to Jesus than some of the other apostles and that John would not twist the words of Jesus in order to deceive us. And then Paul confirms what John says when he wrote,

    "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

    When it comes to the Gospel and justification by faith there is no conflict in the scriptures. It is only when we start to deny that Jesus is the savior of the world that the trouble starts. You cannot be a Calvinist and believe that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world.

    Are we going to believe John or are we going to believe Calvinism? John wrote, "And he is a propitiation for our sins: and not ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2.

    And then John wrote again, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the world" 1 John 4:14.

    If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then there is no hope for anyone. If Jesus did not defeat sin, death and the devil, then all is lost. The reason that Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God is because Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil.

    The scripture confirms this, "And having spoiles principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.

    If Jesus did not defeat sin, death and the devil, then Jesus is not Lord. If Jesus is not Lord then he should be removed from his position at the right hand of God in heaven. If Jesus did not defeat sin, death and the devil and is not the savior of the whole world then we are all still in our sins.

    There are some things in the Bible that are very important. One of them is that Jesus is the savior of the whole world and has defeated sin, death and the devil. If you don't believe that, then you have a savior that is a failure. You can't be saved by a Jesus that is a failure.

    Calvinist want us to deny that Jesus is the savior of the world. To deny that Jesus is the savior of the world is to deny the Gospel and justification by faith. This is exactly what the devil wants you to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Why I Don't Believe in Calvinism or Predestination
    Instead of stating the above (title or not), you should clarify that it's not predestination according to the Bible that you don't believe in, but the doctrine of predestination in Calvinism or according to Calvinism because to say that you don't believe in predestination puts you at odds with the word of God as we are predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself.

    (see also Rom 8:28-30 KJV)

    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    And in Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

    Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    As much as I dislike Calvinism, Mr. Pate, I don't see how you can succeed unless you have an actual argument. Anyone can quote scriptures to support their position, which is why I seldom do in support of my own positions. All the scriptures you quoted, the Calvinists have an answer to. This only gets you precisely nowhere.
    What you need to do is to establish a good logical or moral argument.
    Like, you can argue that predestination makes God out to be wicked. Then, when they come back at you with various scriptures to support their position you reply 'I see. So you are saying that the Bible supports the idea that God is wicked?'
    Then they reply, 'no of course not' and you say 'But I've just shown you that your belief makes God out to be wicked. You can then have a debate with them about whether or not their belief makes God out to be wicked. And this is likely to be a much more fruitful argument than using a sling shot to fire Bible verses at each other.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Instead of stating the above (title or not), you should clarify that it's not predestination according to the Bible that you don't believe in, but the doctrine of predestination in Calvinism or according to Calvinism because to say that you don't believe in predestination puts you at odds with the word of God as we are predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself.

    (see also Rom 8:28-30 KJV)

    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    And in Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

    Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    The only one that has been predestinated is Jesus Christ. God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Hebrews 9:26 also 1 Peter 1:20.

    God does NOTHING outside of his Son Jesus Christ.

    There is no individual election or predestination simply because God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34.

    If you want to be saved you will have to become a "Whosoever".

    "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    As much as I dislike Calvinism, Mr. Pate, I don't see how you can succeed unless you have an actual argument. Anyone can quote scriptures to support their position, which is why I seldom do in support of my own positions. All the scriptures you quoted, the Calvinists have an answer to. This only gets you precisely nowhere.
    What you need to do is to establish a good logical or moral argument.
    Like, you can argue that predestination makes God out to be wicked. Then, when they come back at you with various scriptures to support their position you reply 'I see. So you are saying that the Bible supports the idea that God is wicked?'
    Then they reply, 'no of course not' and you say 'But I've just shown you that your belief makes God out to be wicked. You can then have a debate with them about whether or not their belief makes God out to be wicked. And this is likely to be a much more fruitful argument than using a sling shot to fire Bible verses at each other.

    Calvinist cannot be corrected by scripture. They have other writings that supports their position that they believe is the final authority.

    I am not a Calvinist because I believe in scripture alone, they don't.

    The Calvinist answer is to discredit the Bible by adding words, deleting words and changing the meaning of words.

    The only way that Calvinist can be reached is through the Gospel and justification by faith.

    The key to understanding the Gospel is to believe that Jesus is the savior of the whole world.

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    Robert Pate, what would you define yourself as, in regards to the beliefs you hold?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man.0 View Post
    Robert Pate, what would you define yourself as, in regards to the beliefs you hold?
    A Christian.

    A Bible believing, Gospel embraceing, justified by faith alone, Christian.

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    Are you really a Christian? What makes you so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man.0 View Post
    Are you really a Christian? What makes you so?

    Jesus makes it so. Faith in Christ and his Gospel makes one a Christian. NOT WORKS.

    "That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life" John 3:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    The only one that has been predestinated is Jesus Christ. God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Hebrews 9:26 also 1 Peter 1:20.
    Christ disagrees with you. see also Jer 1:4-5.

    Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.


    There is no individual election or predestination simply because God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34.
    While that seems to make some sense, how come the Hebrews are called His "chosen" people. How come they were chosen out of the nations?
    If you want to be saved you will have to become a "Whosoever".
    "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
    Let me put it this way, while I don't really believe in the "destination" of people, it does seem some are "called" or "ordained" ahead of time. An example would be the apostle Paul who although a sinner and persecutor, Jesus appeared to. Why?
    The main problem I see with Calvinism is the belief that many or most are "predistinated" to sin, error, death, and hell if they are not of "the elect." This sounds kind of like JWs to me who errantly believe only 144,000 go to "heaven." It is definitely the kind of thinking which leads to such erroneous conclusions.
    What is the purpose of the creation of "the wicked" if they are predestined to hell, and cannot choose to follow Christ? Esp if as you point out, God is no respecter of persons? It follows that if God is just, everyone can choose to follow Christ, and no one is predestinated to die in sin and go to "hell."
    But it also seems some events are predestined - like the fall of Tyre, Babylon, etc.
    With these caveats, in some ways I agree with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RevTestament View Post
    Christ disagrees with you. see also Jer 1:4-5.

    Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.


    While that seems to make some sense, how come the Hebrews are called His "chosen" people. How come they were chosen out of the nations?
    Let me put it this way, while I don't really believe in the "destination" of people, it does seem some are "called" or "ordained" ahead of time. An example would be the apostle Paul who although a sinner and persecutor, Jesus appeared to. Why?
    The main problem I see with Calvinism is the belief that many or most are "predistinated" to sin, error, death, and hell if they are not of "the elect." This sounds kind of like JWs to me who errantly believe only 144,000 go to "heaven." It is definitely the kind of thinking which leads to such erroneous conclusions.
    What is the purpose of the creation of "the wicked" if they are predestined to hell, and cannot choose to follow Christ? Esp if as you point out, God is no respecter of persons? It follows that if God is just, everyone can choose to follow Christ, and no one is predestinated to die in sin and go to "hell."
    But it also seems some events are predestined - like the fall of Tyre, Babylon, etc.
    With these caveats, in some ways I agree with you.

    God chose prophets, the nation of Israel, Patriarchs and apostles for the sole purpose of making known to the world the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ. The whole Bible is about God bringing forth a nation and a people from whom the savior of the world would come.

    There is no election without a purpose

    The Jews are God's chosen people in the sense that it was to them that the oracles of God were given.

    The belief that God predestinates some to eternal life and damns the rest to hell makes God unjust.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    God chose prophets, the nation of Israel, Patriarchs and apostles for the sole purpose of making known to the world the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ. The whole Bible is about God bringing forth a nation and a people from whom the savior of the world would come.
    OK. I guess my question to you is how come God told Jeremiah for instance he was chosen from the womb to be a prophet to the nations if He is no respecter of persons? Is there a way to reconcile both of those statements?

    There is no election without a purpose

    The Jews are God's chosen people in the sense that it was to them that the oracles of God were given.
    Why? Why was Jesus not sent to the Gentiles?

    The belief that God predestinates some to eternal life and damns the rest to hell makes God unjust.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RevTestament View Post
    OK. I guess my question to you is how come God told Jeremiah for instance he was chosen from the womb to be a prophet to the nations if He is no respecter of persons? Is there a way to reconcile both of those statements?

    Why? Why was Jesus not sent to the Gentiles?


    Because Jeremiah was chosen from the womb to be a prophet to the nations. The answer is in the scripture.

    God also chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus. Paul was also chosen to take the Gospel to the Gentiles.

    There is no election without a purpose. God does not elect anyone to salvation that is not connected to the Christ event and the Gospel.

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    I have a couple small issues with Calvinism, but in the general sense, TULIP is otherwise the Gospel altogether.

    Hate to disappoint

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    Oh, goodie, more whack-a-mole with pate, who seems to think the commandment to not falsely represent your neighbor isn't for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Calvinism is in direct conflict with the Bible the Gospel and justification by faith.

    There are just to many scriptures that I would have to reject to become a Calvinist. Here are some of them.

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.
    Now, for what Pate apparently won't do... give direct original source quotes:

    That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers.

    Do I even have to tell you where this is from? Google it. I dare you.

    "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
    This testimony is taken out of Joe 2:32 and is brought to prove the truth of what the apostle had just suggested, that all that call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, will find him rich and plenteous in mercy, and ready to dispense his grace and salvation to them: such

    shall be saved;

    be they who they will, whether Jews or Gentiles; not with a temporal salvation only, but with a spiritual and eternal one; for the words of the prophet refer to Gospel times, as the context shows, and is cited and applied thereunto by the Apostle Peter, Ac 2:16-21; besides, the deliverance and salvation Joel speaks of, is of a "remnant whom the Lord shall call", Joe 2:32; and designs the remnant according to the election of grace, whether among Jews or Gentiles, whom God calls by his efficacious grace; between which call and eternal glory, there is a certain and inseparable connection.

    "And he is a propitiation for our sins: and not ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2.
    And not for ours only He added this for the sake of amplifying, in order that the faithful might be assured that the expiation made by Christ, extends to all who by faith embrace the gospel.

    And then John wrote again, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the world" 1 John 4:14.

    If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then there is no hope for anyone. If Jesus did not defeat sin, death and the devil, then all is lost. The reason that Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God is because Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil.
    Kindergarten english: Save means SAVE, not atone. You have to say that save doesn't mean save here because you don't allow God to define what he means by the words he uses.

    I'm happy that you're (as far as I know) not a universalist; but there's no reason here for anyone to think otherwise.

    Calvinist want us to deny that Jesus is the savior of the world.
    Yet again, lying against your neighbor.

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