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Thread: Love your enemies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What's that?

    It is not good to hate your enemies, nurse revenge fantasies, or do evil to others.

    If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.

    Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
    These are examples of theology and dogma. They are faith statements that testify to the importance of Jesus and when we take them literally we forfeit their epic claim and truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    These are examples of theology and dogma. They are faith statements that testify to the importance of Jesus and when we take them literally we forfeit their epic claim and truth.
    It is possible to say things that have meaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Yes. He told the truth so yes.
    This verse clearly shows Jesus was a hypocrite.
    Otherwise, how does the verse stack up against Jesus’ God as a God of Mercy, infinite grace and a God of compassion.

    This passage was clearly written by a later writer who unwittingly placed his own revenge and violence, revealed in his own writings.

    I use a corollary in separating the authentic “voice print” of Jesus from the theological utterances placed into his mouth by later followers after his death:

    Jesus did not speak after he died.
    Sayings that make sense before the Easter events do not make sense after Easter.
    Any words or deeds that have been changed is due to the gospel authors' sayings own creativity.
    Anything that points to a Gentile context is under suspicion.

    So, too, these guidelines...

    --Offensiveness such as Matthew 13:44
    --Differences such as that found in Mark 2:18–22
    --Growth such as the addition of Matt 5:34–37 to an original saying of Jesus found in Matt 5:34
    --Coherence [with Jesus’ orignal mission and his vocabulary.

    I am not so irritatively arrogant to assume I am absolustely correct about anything, nor can I absolsutely prove anything to BE correct.

    Common sense tells me it is indeed difficult to know what exactly said and done 2,000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    This verse clearly shows Jesus was a hypocrite.
    Otherwise, how does the verse stack up against Jesus’ God as a God of Mercy, infinite grace and a God of compassion.

    This passage was clearly written by a later writer who unwittingly placed his own revenge and violence, revealed in his own writings.

    I use a corollary in separating the authentic “voice print” of Jesus from the theological utterances placed into his mouth by later followers after his death:

    Jesus did not speak after he died.
    Sayings that make sense before the Easter events do not make sense after Easter.
    Any words or deeds that have been changed is due to the gospel authors' sayings own creativity.
    Anything that points to a Gentile context is under suspicion.

    So, too, these guidelines...

    --Offensiveness such as Matthew 13:44
    --Differences such as that found in Mark 2:18–22
    --Growth such as the addition of Matt 5:34–37 to an original saying of Jesus found in Matt 5:34
    --Coherence [with Jesus’ orignal mission and his vocabulary.

    I am not so irritatively arrogant to assume I am absolustely correct about anything, nor can I absolsutely prove anything to BE correct.

    Common sense tells me it is indeed difficult to know what exactly said and done 2,000 years ago.
    This has to do with how you read what you do. The way in which you read it or what you see when you do. I do not have any problem with anything that Jesus has said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    If you have any enemies, you are to love them.

    Matthew 5:44 NASB - 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

    Luke 6:27, 35 NASB - 27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, ... 35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

    Perhaps the love of God in your life will be that you no longer have any enemies.

    God's command to love your neighbor knows no boundary.
    If we are to love our enemy as we love our neighbor, then it is our duty to rebuke our enemy and not allow them to continue living in sin.

    Leviticus 19:17-18
    17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
    18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    If we are to love our enemy as we love our neighbor, then it is our duty to rebuke our enemy and not allow them to continue living in sin.

    Leviticus 19:17-18
    17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
    18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
    Your enemy should be loved by you, fellow Israelite, countryman, or otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    This has to do with how you read what you do. The way in which you read it or what you see when you do. I do not have any problem with anything that Jesus has said.
    I don’t either. But you and I have a major difference of opinion.

    I think it is essential to separate Jesus’ authentic voice from the theology that was deliberately placed into his mouth decades after the Easter event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    If we are to love our enemy as we love our neighbor, then it is our duty to rebuke our enemy and not allow them to continue living in sin.
    .

    A positive example that shows the wisdom of loving one’s enemies in an actual, historical setting always works. A “rebuke” never does fundamentally change one’s behavior.

    In fact, the rebuke is a precursor for violence, revenge and war.
    Parents with children know this too late. Political argument demonstrates the abject failure of this approach as well.

    “Love your enemies.”
    Jesus either said this or he didn’t.
    We cannot have it both ways.

    God does not intend for us to hate our enemies.
    On the contrary, he commands us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us.

    No one in history had ever said that before.

    No one.

    This teaching is the most uniquely Christian teaching in all the Bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    I don’t either. But you and I have a major difference of opinion.

    I think it is essential to separate Jesus’ authentic voice from the theology that was deliberately placed into his mouth decades after the Easter event.
    I don't even recognize an Easter event, but I recognize all of Jesus' words even after He rose from the dead.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I don't even recognize an Easter event, but I recognize all of Jesus' words even after He rose from the dead.
    People don’t talk after they are dead.
    Jesus’ words after he was exalted were written by the gospel authors, decades after the crucifixion.

    I believe in the resurrection. I just don’t believe it had anything to do with Jesus’ body.

    The underlying meaning of the resurrection is the truth that after his death, Jesus’ followers were still convinced that his Power and Presence were still available to them.

    They still “walked with Jesus” and “talked with Jesus.”

    Just as we do today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    People don’t talk after they are dead.
    Jesus’ words after he was exalted were written by the gospel authors, decades after the crucifixion.

    I believe in the resurrection. I just don’t believe it had anything to do with Jesus’ body.

    The underlying meaning of the resurrection is the truth that after his death, Jesus’ followers were still convinced that his Power and Presence were still available to them.

    They still “walked with Jesus” and “talked with Jesus.”

    Just as we do today.
    He, Jesus, physically, bodily, rose from the dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    A “rebuke” never does fundamentally change one’s behavior.
    We must still give the rebuke in order to provide them the chance to change their behavior.
    They are responsible for whether they change their behavior after the rebuke.


    Ezekiel 33:7-9
    7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
    8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
    9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.



    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    God does not intend for us to hate our enemies.
    According to scripture, failing to rebuke someone for their sin is hate.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    People don’t talk after they are dead.
    Jesus’ words after he was exalted were written by the gospel authors, decades after the crucifixion.

    I believe in the resurrection. I just don’t believe it had anything to do with Jesus’ body.
    It appears that your faith is in vain.

    1 Corinthians 15:13-14
    13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.


    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    The underlying meaning of the resurrection is the truth that after his death, Jesus’ followers were still convinced that his Power and Presence were still available to them.

    They still “walked with Jesus” and “talked with Jesus.”

    Just as we do today.
    People physically saw Jesus between the crucifixion and the ascension, which we are not able to do today.

    1 Corinthians 15:3-7
    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
    6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
    7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    It appears that your faith is in vain.
    Folllowing Jesus and having a personal relationship is an example of faith in the God revealed in Jesus.

    “...Your FAITH has made you whole....”
    --Mark 10:52

    This truth was spoken LONG before Jesus was hanged on a cross.


    People physically saw Jesus between the crucifixion and the ascension, which we are not able to do today.
    .

    People were SAID to have seen Jesus.

    Careful readers of ancient history are aware that there was no such thing as objective journalism or history in those times.

    The very idea would have been impossible to conceive of.

    https://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/b...bo5971512.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    Folllowing Jesus ...

    you don't follow Jesus, you follow a jesus you've constructed to suit yourself

  17. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    Aimiel (March 7th, 2019),genuineoriginal (February 25th, 2019),way 2 go (February 25th, 2019)

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