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  1. #16
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditio View Post
    Protestants make similar arguments, i.e., that Catholics put "the tradition of men" over the "word of God."
    Not comparable. You know that islam does not follow the Bible. The child molester made things up just like the Book of Mormon. Whereas your "Pope" and myself and the others are using the exact same book.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    I have to tell you that after 9/11, I felt it was my patriotic duty to read the Qur’an. It’s a long slog and difficult to read because the Muslim Holy Book is written in a way that presents the longest chapter first and ends up with the shortest chapter.

    Historical order is next to impossible to determine.

    Reading the Bible is much easier.

    You can clearly see that Mark was the first gospel written and then you can follow how both Luke and Matthew changed Mark to suit their own agendas.

    Christianity is a developing tradition like any other of the world’s faiths and Bible study reveals to us HOW it developed.

    Not so easy with the Qur’an.

    But I was surprised and a little bewildered after reading it.

    There was nothing about Shari’ah Law, except for one reference [that I could find] regarding the word “Sharia" but it defines it as “path” not law--as in Allah’s reassurance that Muhammed is “on the right path.”

    In fact, Muhammed himself said “The most excellent jihad is the one against the Self.”

    There is nothing about 72 virgins.
    There is nothing about demanding certain dress codes for Muslim women.

    If Muhammed was a pedophile, then so was Joseph, Mary’s husband. In the ancient world, women could be married as soon as they reached their menses. Mary could well have been very young as well.

    I found that the subject of polygamy was along the lines of "O.K. if you males insist, but it’s better if you don’t.”

    And jihad doesn’t mean Holy War. It means striving.
    Muhammed himself said “The most excellent jihad is the struggle against the Self.”

    Violence is sometimes mandated, but it is no more encouraged than the biblical verses which inform us that Jesus wears blood-soaked robes and slaughters the unfaithful until the resulting blood and gore “reaches the level of a horse’s bridle for a distance of 200 miles.”

    What has always struck me in the Bible is that God is described as an old woman giving birth, a potter, an eagle, a mountain, a storm, a wind, etc. while the God of Islam and divine mercy are described in terms of water: springs, pools, lakes and rain.

    Just what one would expect of a tribal, desert culture where water literally means life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    I have to tell you that after 9/11, I felt it was my patriotic duty to read the Qur’an.
    I read it for knowledge and because our nation had been attacked and I didn't even know the enemy. Of course I must temper this with that I care about each and every person.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    I have to tell you that after 9/11, I felt it was my patriotic duty to read the Qur’an. It’s a long slog and difficult to read because the Muslim Holy Book is written in a way that presents the longest chapter first and ends up with the shortest chapter.

    Historical order is next to impossible to determine.

    Reading the Bible is much easier.

    You can clearly see that Mark was the first gospel written and then you can follow how both Luke and Matthew changed Mark to suit their own agendas.

    Christianity is a developing tradition like any other of the world’s faiths and Bible study reveals to us HOW it developed.

    Not so easy with the Qur’an.

    But I was surprised and a little bewildered after reading it.

    There was nothing about Shari’ah Law, except for one reference [that I could find] regarding the word “Sharia" but it defines it as “path” not law--as in Allah’s reassurance that Muhammed is “on the right path.”

    In fact, Muhammed himself said “The most excellent jihad is the one against the Self.”

    There is nothing about 72 virgins.
    There is nothing about demanding certain dress codes for Muslim women.

    If Muhammed was a pedophile, then so was Joseph, Mary’s husband. In the ancient world, women could be married as soon as they reached their menses. Mary could well have been very young as well.

    I found that the subject of polygamy was along the lines of "O.K. if you males insist, but it’s better if you don’t.”

    And jihad doesn’t mean Holy War. It means striving.
    Muhammed himself said “The most excellent jihad is the struggle against the Self.”

    Violence is sometimes mandated, but it is no more encouraged than the biblical verses which inform us that Jesus wears blood-soaked robes and slaughters the unfaithful until the resulting blood and gore “reaches the level of a horse’s bridle for a distance of 200 miles.”

    What has always struck me in the Bible is that God is described as an old woman giving birth, a potter, an eagle, a mountain, a storm, a wind, etc. while the God of Islam and divine mercy are described in terms of water: springs, pools, lakes and rain.

    Just what one would expect of a tribal, desert culture where water literally means life.

    I have studied Koranic Arabic for the past quarter century, and the conclusion that I have arrived at is that the authors of the Koran were early Arab Christians that paraphrased the Holy Bible and set it to rhyme in Arabic - thus, original order and context no longer exists, for the most part, which makes it a challenge to decipher...

    >75% of the Koran was copied from the Biblical Book of Revelation, alone...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    I have studied Koranic Arabic for the past quarter century, and the conclusion that I have arrived at is that the authors of the Koran were early Arab Christians that paraphrased the Holy Bible and set it to rhyme in Arabic - thus, original order and context no longer exists, for the most part, which makes it a challenge to decipher...

    >75% of the Koran was copied from the Biblical Book of Revelation, alone...
    Interesting theory. It certainly invites further study.

    There is a word called “Syncretism” that is commonly used by historians of religion:

    1. The attempted reconciliation or union of different or opposing principles, practices, or parties, as in philosophy or religion.

    2. The merging, as by historical change in a language, of two or more categories in a specified environment into one, as, in nonstandard English, the use of was with both singular and plural subjects, while in standard English was is used with singular subjects (except for you in the second person singular) and were with plural subjects.

    When two religions meet each separate faith gathers information, dogma and theology from the other religion.

    Christian missionaries to Africa have noticed the power of syncretism when the African converts place their newly-taught religion within a wider context of the tribal beliefs they themselves have inherited.

    Those who do a focused study of Christian texts have found patterned echoes of other foundational myths of other faiths. There is a strong case to be made of how Luke wrote his gospel and heavilly borrowed the form, the rhythms and the sentence structures of Homer’s Oddessy. Homer’s legendary book was well-known in the ancient world. Luke no doubt borrowed some of its form to make his gospel more memorable.

    The structure of the human brain is the same everywhere, so many mythic and legendary stories show up in many forms over and over in human cultures.

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    Over 3000 post club Apple7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    Interesting theory. It certainly invites further study.

    There is a word called “Syncretism” that is commonly used by historians of religion:

    1. The attempted reconciliation or union of different or opposing principles, practices, or parties, as in philosophy or religion.

    2. The merging, as by historical change in a language, of two or more categories in a specified environment into one, as, in nonstandard English, the use of was with both singular and plural subjects, while in standard English was is used with singular subjects (except for you in the second person singular) and were with plural subjects.

    When two religions meet each separate faith gathers information, dogma and theology from the other religion.

    Christian missionaries to Africa have noticed the power of syncretism when the African converts place their newly-taught religion within a wider context of the tribal beliefs they themselves have inherited.

    Those who do a focused study of Christian texts have found patterned echoes of other foundational myths of other faiths. There is a strong case to be made of how Luke wrote his gospel and heavilly borrowed the form, the rhythms and the sentence structures of Homer’s Oddessy. Homer’s legendary book was well-known in the ancient world. Luke no doubt borrowed some of its form to make his gospel more memorable.

    The structure of the human brain is the same everywhere, so many mythic and legendary stories show up in many forms over and over in human cultures.

    The Koran is different in this respect, as the authors openly admit that they merely copied the previous Holy Bible (alkitab) and converted it piecemeal into Arabic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    The Koran is different in this respect, as the authors openly admit that they merely copied the previous Holy Bible (alkitab) and converted it piecemeal into Arabic.
    Since, like the Bible, the Qur’an is a human product, I doubt that the “authors” could even be identified.
    Evidence is lacking as to any admissions made by the original scribes. They are lost to history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    Since, like the Bible, the Qur’an is a human product, I doubt that the “authors” could even be identified.
    Evidence is lacking as to any admissions made by the original scribes. They are lost to history.
    The Koran never claims to be divinely inspired, thus, we should not expect that it was.

    The Holy Bible, however, does claim to be divinely inspired, thus, we should expect that it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    The Koran never claims to be divinely inspired, thus, we should not expect that it was.

    The Holy Bible, however, does claim to be divinely inspired, thus, we should expect that it is.
    Your post is puzzling to me.

    On one hand Islam tells us that Muhammed was a prophet and that Allah dictated his teachings to Muhammed which Muhammed wrote down.

    And on the other, you seem to be claiming that the Qu’ran was not divinely inspired.

    Muslims believe the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel.

    The world’s faiths do claim many things.
    Most of these things are faith statements, theologies or metaphors.
    In the case of Christianity, the theology was added much later.

    The theology of the crucifixion [blood atonement for remission of human sin] was not in evidence until some 900 years after Jesus’ death by the theologian Anselm of Canterbury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post

    Muslims believe the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel.
    stoopid mooslims

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    stoopid mooslims
    You spelled “stupid” wrong.
    And you also spelled “Muslims” wrong.

    I don’t think it is at all intellligent.
    But that is only my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    Your post is puzzling to me.

    On one hand Islam tells us that Muhammed was a prophet and that Allah dictated his teachings to Muhammed which Muhammed wrote down.

    And on the other, you seem to be claiming that the Qu’ran was not divinely inspired.

    Muslims believe the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel.

    The world’s faiths do claim many things.
    Most of these things are faith statements, theologies or metaphors.
    In the case of Christianity, the theology was added much later.

    The theology of the crucifixion [blood atonement for remission of human sin] was not in evidence until some 900 years after Jesus’ death by the theologian Anselm of Canterbury.
    What islam claims, and what the Koran says, are two entirely different things.

    No one named 'Muhammad' had anything at all to do with the Koran, according to the Koran.

    No angel Gabriel had anything to do with inspiring someone named 'Muhammad' according to the Koran.

    Be wary of Islamic myth, lest you fall into its false narrative...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    What islam claims, and what the Koran says, are two entirely different things.
    Absolutely. Just like all religions. What Christianity claims and what Jesus actually taught are markedly different.

    No one named 'Muhammad' had anything at all to do with the Koran, according to the Koran.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_in_the_Quran

    No angel Gabriel had anything to do with inspiring someone named 'Muhammad' according to the Koran
    .

    Obviously, not literally. It is a faith claim. It is not history.

    Be wary of Islamic myth, lest you fall into its false narrative...
    .

    In religion, myth is the closest we can come to absolute truth.

    We need stories. Since ancient times, we have turned to stories, tales, and myths in order to articulate our understanding of the cosmos.

    Not only do these narratives enable us to describe reality, they portray humanity’s place and purpose in the creation. Stories help us figure out the world, describe norms and ideals, and give us guidelines as to how we are to successfully navigate through life.

    As the Native American storyteller once said “I don’t know if the story I am going to tell you really happened. I only know that it is true."

    Christian writer C.S. Lewis warns us that "we must not be ashamed of the mythical radiance resting in our theology. For this is the marriage of heaven and earth: Perfect Myth and Perfect Fact: wonder and delight, addressed to the savage, the child, the poet in each one of us no less than the moralist, the scholar, and the philosopher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    Muslims believe the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel.
    That brought to mind:

    Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    Because Islam falsely claims that the anti-Gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

    Islam is an anti-Gospel religion because, even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72), and it denies that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the third day. In order to be saved from hell, people have to believe the Gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

    The reason why it is necessary to believe these things to be saved from hell is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus Christ's suffering during His Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

    One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus Christ can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says that there was no time when the Koran did not exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says that before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when He did not exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

    This is not to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, again, because Islam falsely claims that the anti-Gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    ...
    No one named 'Muhammad' had anything at all to do with the Koran, according to the Koran.

    ...
    Do you have a source for this?

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