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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post


    The Christian Bible’s quotes from Jesus never say he thought of himself as God, Son of God, Messiah or virgin-born.
    Incorrect.

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    The only hint or even mentioning whatsoever at all concerning The Trinity Doctrine in Islam - is a description concerning - Mary, Allah and Yahoshua, and it calls these three as "Allah, Allah's wife Mary and their conceived son Yahoshua "

    Although the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Quran - but it is only mentioned in the context of - giving revelation and Holy Books, giving signs and strength - also the breath of life and in the Quran The Holy Spirit is also breathing into Mary’s womb to conceive Yahoshua. The Quran condemns and -
    decries and warns against the Christians who believe that these three are considered “ the three “ as partners or calls on the title or phrase of - “ THE THREE “ to say that Christians falsely believe in - “ The Three “ as - = Allah, Mary and their conceived son Yahoshua.
    This is the only condemnation and objection to any form or elusion or insinuation or any hint of a Trinity in The Quran. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in the context of " The Three " that Christians have attributed as partners with Allah.

    If we take The Quran upon the intended message and upon the word of what it literally says and explains concerning what Allah and Mohammad are saying, that Christians believe that Mary and Allah are a part of the Trinity Doctrine.

    Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah ) said: - Mary is mentioned alongside the Messiah, because some Christians took her as another god and worshipped her as they worshipped the Messiah. As for those who do not believe in that, they still ask of her what should be asked of God, to the extent that they say to her: Forgive me, have mercy on me, and so on, based on a belief that she will intercede with her son concerning that.

    Sometimes they say: O mother of God, intercede for us with God. And sometimes they ask her for their needs, which should be sought from God, and they do not mention intercession. Others worship her as they worshipped the Messiah. - Al-Jawaab as-Saheeh (4/255-256).

    The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in The Quran as a part of “ the three / { trinity } “ but the Quran makes its stand against The Trinity, only by the reasoning - of stating “ that God cannot have a son since he has no wife “

    Sura. 72:3 - The truth is that - exalted be the Majesty of our Lord - HE has taken unto Himself neither wife nor son.
    Tafsir al-Jalalayn - Disbelievers say, 'God is the third of three', gods, that is, He is one of them, the other two being Jesus and his mother, are - [those] who are fixed upon unbelief, shall suffer a painful chastisement, namely, the Fire.

    The entire concept of The Trinity Doctrine involving The Father, Son and Sprit are completely absent and nonexistent in the Quran -

    I, myself, personally - do not believe that The Father, Son and Spirit are Three Separate, Individual, Distinct Persons - and I have found that The Trinitarians have altered, changed, added to and removed words from the Original Manuscripts in creating their Trinitarian Translations. - - I simply trully believe what the Original Manuscripts say - that these three are One. And not mentioned or described - as Three Persons.

    As it explains in - Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. - :5 For think or regard this in / You / yourselves who { You whom also exist } or ( to ) - You who are - also in Christ Jesus.

    6 Who, existed in the form / morph of God, thought it not robbery or seizing, taking (by force) being or eXisting equally God: - :7 But an ineffective / vain / voided / non-effect reputation Himself, taking or receiving the form / morph of a servant was in the likeness of men: = human nature.

    Yahoshua admitted that He was not a CO EQUAl " not a CO ETERNAL, INDIVIDUAL " who was a - SEPARATE DISTINCT PERSON - from the Father. Nor a part of a Trinitarian concept, nor one in unity or agreement with the Father. But He was in the form / morph of God, - eXisting equally God: - :
    But also at the same time - here on earth, as a man - God took on the MORPH - ONLY - JUST as a vain / voided / non-effect - reputation of Himself - and - MADE INTO - and taking or receiving - the form / morph of a servant, - He, THE FATHER - was MORPHED into the likeness of a man: / human. - Yahoshua defines the terms in His message - by saying that He does nothing of His own self - saying that I can do nothing whatsoever of my own doing. - I do not have any power of miracles, of my own " I do not have a will of my own - I CANNOT DO anything, whatsoever - OF MY OWN ... Saying that it is the father only, that does the miracles and the works.

    He was not a distinct separated part of God, nor of a trinity in a partnership as a second PERSON of a triune CO EQUAL GODHEAD with a head and a tail. The word GODHEAD - = does not exist in the Bible. - He was not a separate identity or separate person " separated nor individual PERSON - from the father " His will was not " CO EQUAL " nor the same as " in the same WILL as Gods will. He has no power, no control, no miracles, no knowledge and there is no good, no honor and no REPUTATION in Him. -

    Saying - why do you call me " good " ? -- " There is NO ONE good but God alone " - - Every time He spoke of his own will, power, majesty and desire and purpose " I find that He denied the trinity doctrine- Yet at the same time, he and the scriptures declare that He was God Himself - He was from heaven, and He PRE EXISTED / ORIGINATED - in the bosom of the father and EXITED from { out from } the bosom of the father to sit in the RIGHT of God until his enemies are a footstool " And the Trinitarian Translation denies and deletes and removes the words that say that He EXITED from { out from } the bosom of the father. = replacing the word ( OUT FROM ) the right of the Father - to say He only sits " AT " the right hand. I believe that Trinitarians and Muslims both deny and reject and or delete from where He originated, in their scripture and translations.


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    No one, anywhere, at any time can cause dead people to emerge from their grave and walk around and talk & eat.
    So something else is going on.
    The resurrection had nothing to do with Jesus’ body.

    It was a metaphoric meme in Jewish culture. There were other terms they used for the same thing: “Taken up,” “Sitting at God’s right hand” or descending to Sheol.

    It is flatly impossible to write a coherent story of the crucifixion and resurrection without leaving out a single biblical detail.
    There is no description of the resurretion event anywhere in the New Testament.

    Only the Gospel of Peter [a non-canonical text] offers a striking description of the resurrection:

    "But in the night in which the Lord's day dawned, when the soldiers were safeguarding it two by two in every watch, there was a loud voice in heaven; and they saw that the heavens were opened and that two males who had much radiance had come down from there and come near the sepulcher.

    "But that stone which had been thrust against the door, having rolled by itself, went a distance off the side; and the sepulcher opened, and both the young men entered.

    "And so those soldiers, having seen, awakened the centurion and the elders (for they too were present, safeguarding). And while they were relating what they had seen, again they see three males who have come out from they sepulcher, with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them, and the head of the two reaching unto heaven, but that of the one being led out by a hand by them going beyond the heavens.

    "And they were hearing a voice from the heavens saying, 'Have you made proclamation to the fallen-asleep?' And an obeisance was heard from the cross, 'Yes.’ "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Incorrect.
    “Why do you call ME good? Only God is good.”

    "Friend, who made me a judge over you?”

    “Go and learn what this means: [God] desires mercy, NOT sacrifice.”

    The Baptizer had Jesus wash in the Jordan River to cleans his sins.

    We DO find Jesus calling himself God in the Gospel of John.

    Jesus is made to say things like, "Before Abraham was, I am."
    "I and the Father are one."
    "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father.”

    esus’ ability to do miracles: in the Hebrew Bible the prophets Elijah and Elisha did fantastic miracles through the power of God – including healing the sick and raising the dead — and in the New Testament so did the apostles Peter and Paul; but that did not make any of them divine. They were humans.


    NOTE: John also asserts that Jesus said “The Father is greater than I."

    These are all statements you find only in the Gospel of John, and that's very interesting because we have earlier gospels [and we have the writings of Paul], and in none of them is there any indication that Jesus said such things...

    Like most great men of the past, Jesus was said to have performed miracles.
    In the Hebrew Bible the prophets Elijah and Elisha did fantastic miracles through the power of God--including healing the sick and raising the dead.
    In the New Testament so did the apostles Peter and Paul.

    But that did not make any of them divine.
    They were humans.

    For Mark, Jesus was adopted to be God’s son at his baptism.
    Before that, he was a human being.

    For Luke & Matthew, Jesus was conceived by God and so was literally God’s son, from the point of his conception.

    For John, Jesus was a pre-existent divine being--the Word of God who was both with God and was God at the beginning of all things--who became a human.

    Here he is not born of a virgin and he is not adopted by God at the baptism (neither event is narrated in John, which is not surprising given John’s theological agenda.

    Matthew also emphasized that Jesus was born to be the King of Jews.
    Luke is more explicit, putting this into the mouth of the angels "for to you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour who is Christ the Lord."

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    No one, anywhere, at any time can cause dead people to emerge from their grave and walk around and talk & eat.
    So something else is going on.
    The resurrection had nothing to do with Jesus’ body.

    It was a metaphoric meme in Jewish culture. There were other terms they used for the same thing: “Taken up,” “Sitting at God’s right hand” or descending to Sheol.

    It is flatly impossible to write a coherent story of the crucifixion and resurrection without leaving out a single biblical detail.
    There is no description of the resurretion event anywhere in the New Testament.

    Only the Gospel of Peter [a non-canonical text] offers a striking description of the resurrection:

    "But in the night in which the Lord's day dawned, when the soldiers were safeguarding it two by two in every watch, there was a loud voice in heaven; and they saw that the heavens were opened and that two males who had much radiance had come down from there and come near the sepulcher.

    "But that stone which had been thrust against the door, having rolled by itself, went a distance off the side; and the sepulcher opened, and both the young men entered.

    "And so those soldiers, having seen, awakened the centurion and the elders (for they too were present, safeguarding). And while they were relating what they had seen, again they see three males who have come out from they sepulcher, with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them, and the head of the two reaching unto heaven, but that of the one being led out by a hand by them going beyond the heavens.

    "And they were hearing a voice from the heavens saying, 'Have you made proclamation to the fallen-asleep?' And an obeisance was heard from the cross, 'Yes.’ "
    What is your take on Paul's words then in 1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV? From where I'm setting, it looks as though he's saying that if Christ's Resurrection is fiction, then the whole Christian faith is a fraud.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    There is a valid argument within Christianity: The question is whether the resurrection of Jesus was “physical and bodily” or “spiritual and mystical.”

    This distinction is helpful. It makes clear that Christians have understood the meanings of Easter in different ways.

    But for more than one reason [including the modern common meanings of these words--mystical or bodily--in modern English], I don’t like either option.

    The early Christian communities did not believe that faith in a resurrection was necessary for forgiveness. Most of them did not preserve any passion narratives--let alone consider the Easter event necessary.

    Any representation of Jesus hanging on a cross [whether in paintings, sculptures or mosaics] until well into the 5th century.

    Before his death, Jesus was quoted saying to the woman afflicted by a vaginal discharge: "YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU."

    But for more than one reason [including the modern common meanings of these words in modern English, I don’t like either option.

    Both convictions are grounded in experience.
    Some of Jesus’ followers experienced him after his death as a figure of the present, not just of the past.

    And they experienced him as a divine reality, now “one with God” and “at the right hand of God.”

    Let’s meditate on the MEANING of Easter.
    What can we say with certainty about the underlying meaning of the resurrection?

    What is the meaning of Easter resurrection in the gospels and the New Testament?

    It’s significant in two fundamental ways:

    Jesus lives and is Lord.

    The central meaning of Easter is not about whether something happened to the corpse of Jesus

    Its central meanings are that Jesus continues to be known and that he is Lord.
    The tomb couldn’t hold him.
    He’s loose in the world.
    He’s still here.
    He’s still recruiting for the kingdom of God.
    Last edited by aikido7; March 6th, 2019 at 04:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by advenureside View Post
    The only hint or even mentioning whatsoever at all concerning The Trinity Doctrine in Islam - is a description concerning - Mary, Allah and Yahoshua, and it calls these three as "Allah, Allah's wife Mary and their conceived son Yahoshua "
    Incorrect.

    Firstly, Islam has nothing at all to do with the Koran.

    Islam is a poor attempt at interpreting the Koran.

    Secondly, the Koran was wholesale paraphrased from the Holy Bible to begin with, by its authors, and most definitely promotes the Biblical Trinity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by advenureside View Post

    Although the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Quran - but it is only mentioned in the context of - giving revelation and Holy Books, giving signs and strength - also the breath of life and in the Quran The Holy Spirit is also breathing into Mary’s womb to conceive Yahoshua. The Quran condemns and -
    decries and warns against the Christians who believe that these three are considered “ the three “ as partners or calls on the title or phrase of - “ THE THREE “ to say that Christians falsely believe in - “ The Three “ as - = Allah, Mary and their conceived son Yahoshua.
    This is the only condemnation and objection to any form or elusion or insinuation or any hint of a Trinity in The Quran. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in the context of " The Three " that Christians have attributed as partners with Allah.
    Incorrect.

    The passage to which you allude is the Koranic ayah (which, ironically Muslims are trained to use all the time for their position) actually plainly states that the Trinity is not “three”, but instead, it is “one”, and then proceeds to list out Father, Son, and Spirit…


    يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
    إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
    وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
    ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
    إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
    السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا


    Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

    4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except The Truth (is) only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and they do not say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly His what is in the heavens and what is in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.



    Observe that this ayah is directed at ‘The Book’s family’ (ahla alkitabi) – which refers to the followers of the Holy Bible; i.e. Christians.

    For the Muslim, it then gives instruction as to what the correct interpretation of the Holy Bible needs to be regarding (among numerous things), the concept of the Trinity.


    In this classic Islamic one-hit-wonder we are told not to refer to the one “allah” as “Three”, as even his messengers do not say “Three” - because he is not the result of counted things (thalathatun)….and yet, in the very ayah itself it lists-out directly, Father, Son, & Spirit.

    This is a classic Koranic example in which the authors display their understanding of the Biblical concept of the Holy Trinity, and give the example of what it is not by the usage of the word “Three”…and what it is, by the example of “one”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by advenureside View Post

    If we take The Quran upon the intended message and upon the word of what it literally says and explains concerning what Allah and Mohammad are saying, that Christians believe that Mary and Allah are a part of the Trinity Doctrine.
    Incorrect.

    Firstly, no one named 'Muhammad' had anything at all to do with the Koran, according to the Koran, itself.

    Secondly, the Koran confirms its Biblical stance that Mary is NOT part of The Trinity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by advenureside View Post

    Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah ) said: - Mary is mentioned alongside the Messiah, because some Christians took her as another god and worshipped her as they worshipped the Messiah. As for those who do not believe in that, they still ask of her what should be asked of God, to the extent that they say to her: Forgive me, have mercy on me, and so on, based on a belief that she will intercede with her son concerning that.

    Sometimes they say: O mother of God, intercede for us with God. And sometimes they ask her for their needs, which should be sought from God, and they do not mention intercession. Others worship her as they worshipped the Messiah. - Al-Jawaab as-Saheeh (4/255-256).

    This could be said of Roman Catholics, who are not considered as true Christians to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    This could be said of Roman Catholics, who are not considered as true Christians to begin with.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by advenureside View Post

    The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in The Quran as a part of “ the three / { trinity } “ but the Quran makes its stand against The Trinity, only by the reasoning - of stating “ that God cannot have a son since he has no wife “
    Incorrect on all accounts.

    The passage already posted above, 4.171, declares that the Holy Spirit is included in The Trinity.

    Further still, this very same passage, 4.171, declares that Jesus is THE SON!

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    Quote Originally Posted by advenureside View Post

    Sura. 72:3 - The truth is that - exalted be the Majesty of our Lord - HE has taken unto Himself neither wife nor son.
    Incorrect.

    وأنه تعلى جد ربنا ما اتخذ صحبة ولا ولدا

    Waannahu taAAala jaddu rabbina ma ittakhatha sahibatan wala waladan

    72.3 And that he, high above all greatness our Lord, that he has not taken (a) companion and nor (a) son.

    Here, the demons are relaying to you that someone from them says that the Lord does not have a Son.

    You apparently believed what they told you without looking to the very next ayah…





    وأنه كان يقول سفيهنا على الله شططا

    Waannahu kana yaqoolu safeehuna AAala Allahi shatatan

    72.4 “And that he was the foolish individual amongst us, he says on “allah” (a) preposterous thing far from the truth.”



    See how 72.4 corrects the foolish demon that deceived you into believe that there is no Son?

    This foolish one is called-out for what he told you (and you believed) as being a preposterous thing far from the truth.

    Thus, this ayah is in complete agreement with the rest of the Koran in proclaiming that Jesus Christ is the Son.

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    Jesus is seen by Islam as a great prophet--the same word that Jesus characterized about himself.

    Muhammed is seen as the final prophet.

    And the Qu’ran says nothing about Shariah Law, dress codes for women, or 72 virgins.

    “The most excellent jihad is the one against the Self."
    --Muhammed

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    Quote Originally Posted by advenureside View Post
    Tafsir al-Jalalayn - Disbelievers say, 'God is the third of three', gods, that is, He is one of them, the other two being Jesus and his mother, are - [those] who are fixed upon unbelief, shall suffer a painful chastisement, namely, the Fire.
    The passage to which you refer...

    لقد كفر الذين قالوا إن الله هو المسيح ابن مريم وقال المسيح يبني إسرءيل اعبدوا الله ربي وربكم إنه من يشرك بالله فقد حرم الله عليه الجنة ومأويه النار وما للظلمين من أنصار لقد كفر الذين قالوا إن الله ثالث ثلثة وما من إله إلا إله وحد وإن لم ينتهوا عما يقولون ليمسن الذين كفروا منهم عذاب أليم


    Laqad kafara allatheena qaloo inna Allaha huwa almaseehu ibnu maryama waqala almaseehu ya banee isra-eela oAAbudoo Allaha rabbee warabbakum innahu man yushrik biAllahi faqad harrama Allahu AAalayhi aljannata wama/wahu alnnaru wama lilththalimeena min ansarin laqad kafara allatheena qaloo inna Allaha thalithu thalathatin wama min ilahin illa ilahun wahidun wa-in lam yantahoo AAamma yaqooloona layamassanna allatheena kafaroo minhum AAathabun aleemun

    Certainly they whom disbelieved said: "Truly “allah”, he The Messiah, Mary's son,” and The Messiah said: " My son’s of Israel, you worship “allah”, My Lord and your Lord, truly him, he associates a partner with “allah” so certainly “allah”, he forbade on him the Paradise, and his home is the fire, and no wrongdoers from helpers.” Certainly they whom disbelieved said: "Truly “allah” a third (of) three.” And not from god except one god, and lest they do not refrain from what they say, a painful torture will touch whom they disbelieved from them. (5.72 – 73)


    These ayahs tell us about what the disbelievers said.

    They believe:


    1) That “allah” is The Messiah.


    Fact is, “allah” is not The Messiah. He never has been and never will be. Thus, the Koran rightly records this as a false statement.




    They believe:

    2) That Jesus said for Israel to worship “allah” along with Him.

    Fact is, Jesus never once said for Israel to worship “allah”, neither with Him, or without Him. Thus, the Koran also rightly records this as a false statement.




    They believe:

    3) That Jesus associated a partner with “allah”.

    Fact is, Jesus never once associated a partnership with “allah”. Thus, the Koran also rightly records this as a false statement.




    They believe:

    4) That “allah” is a third of three.


    Fact is, “allah” is not a third of three, and neither is the Biblical Holy Trinity. Never has been and never will be. Thus, the Koran also rightly records this as a false statement, as well.

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