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Thread: Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

  1. #61
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    Given that God is not a liar and has clearly laid out the fact of the Triune Godhead, and that it is God that is doing the saving of His children, it is impossible for there to be a person so regenerated by God that denies the Trinity. This would in effect be a house divided.

    All Christians are Trinitarians.
    All non-Trinitarians are not Christians.

    AMR
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  2. #62
    Over 5000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Given that God is not a liar and has clearly laid out the fact of the Triune Godhead, and that it is God that is doing the saving of His children, it is impossible for there to be a person so regenerated by God that denies the Trinity. This would in effect be a house divided.

    All Christians are Trinitarians.
    All non-Trinitarians are not Christians.

    AMR
    Let us see some scripture that supports that? Where does God say He is a Trinity. As for the word "Godhead," that is a recent man made term. It is not biblical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    Those involved in Philosophy were the Gnostics, they introduced the Sunday Sabbath, Trinitarianism, Hell, Messiah worship, authority of the Pope; the titles, Father, Lord, Rabbi, Teacher, Master.

    There were two different groups of Gnostic's during the first centuries AD.

    The first group of Gnostic's were opposed to Christianity.
    The other group of Gnostic's were not opposed, and joined Pagan notions to Christianity.

    The Gnostic Christians believed in Sunday Sabbath, authority of the Pope, and Trinitarianism, while the Judaizing Christians were opposed to such things as Catholicism [Universalism.]

    1 Tim 6:20
    "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called."

    The "oppositions of science falsely so called." is the opposition to Jewish and Pagan Gnosticism.

    Science is "gnosis" in the Greek.

    Philosophy and Gnosticism is the "profane and vain babblings" the Congregations had to combat.

    Albert Pike, a high prophet of Freemasonry, spoke on the origin of Trinitarianism. In his secret book "Morals and Dogma" he says of the Kabbalist "Jews were the direct precursors of Gnosticism," their Kabbalist doctrine is derived from their captivity while in Babylon.

    Philo of Alexandria was a Jew who played a key role in the development of the Trinitarian theory. Pike says, he was a Kabbalist "a initiate of the mysteries."

    Philo introduced the idea of a trinity to the Hellenistic Jews of Alexandria.
    Philo did not equate the three members of his trinity. He wrote that “the middle person of the three,” was Yahweh, the Father of the Universe, who is uncreated and unbegotten. God, the Father of the Universe was accompanied by two “body-guards”: the creative power and the royal power. God being greater than them. These ideas of Philo made a great impact on Christianity.

    Trinity
    In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases came from Plato, through the teachings of Valentinus. Valentinus is quoted as teaching that God is three, three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

    These men also taught three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. It was believed he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but he was discovered to have taken this from Hermes and Plato.

    Valentinus (also spelled Valentinius) (c.100 - c.160) was known as a early Christian Gnostic Theologian.

    It should be noted that Nag Hammadi library Sethian text such as Trimorphic Protennoia identify Gnosticism as also professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
    "The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
    Have you ever studied about Pagan trinities during the days of Abraham?

    The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine
    by Cher-El L. Hagensick


    http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Content...%20Trinity.htm

    This link has been tested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    Excellent Link my friend.
    Thanks.
    The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine
    by Cher-El L. Hagensick


    http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Content...%20Trinity.htm

    This link has also been tested.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Given that God is not a liar and has clearly laid out the fact of the Triune Godhead, and that it is God that is doing the saving of His children, it is impossible for there to be a person so regenerated by God that denies the Trinity. This would in effect be a house divided.

    All Christians are Trinitarians.
    All non-Trinitarians are not Christians.

    AMR
    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    Let us see some scripture that supports that? Where does God say He is a Trinity. As for the word "Godhead," that is a recent man made term. It is not biblical.
    Q. E. D.

    By my post above, a non-Trinitarian is obligated to declare all Trinitarians as non-believers as the Scripture cannot support a contradiction. Either God and His special revelation—Scripture—teaches the Godhead is Triune or the Godhead is not. So believing a lie is not believing the truth of Scripture. Those that believe (i.e., faith - knowledge, assent, trust) the truth of Scripture are Christians, those that believe anything else are not Christians.

    Giving a "Christian" pass to this or that person under the guise that they are merely "confused" is effectively claiming that the God who saves and is saving has a divided house on matters essential to the faith.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Q. E. D.

    By my post above, a non-Trinitarian is obligated to declare all Trinitarians as non-believers as the Scripture cannot support a contradiction. Either God and His special revelation—Scripture—teaches the Godhead is Triune or the Godhead is not. So believing a lie is not believing the truth of Scripture. Those that believe (i.e., faith - knowledge, assent, trust) the truth of Scripture are Christians, those that believe anything else are not Christians.

    Giving a "Christian" pass to this or that person under the guise that they are merely "confused" is effectively claiming that the God who saves and is saving has a divided house on matters essential to the faith.

    AMR
    I asked for proof and you came here empty handed.

    Adding to scriptures and joining Paganism to God does not make a biblical truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    I'm confidant of one thing; You're ALWAYS wrong!
    As usual, you ignore the scriptures, and offer opinions, but no scripture.

    Where is your evidence from scripture?
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    In other words, you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Why am I not surprised?
    That is a very strange conclusion.

    Are you saying you have to know scripture, inside and out, forward and backwards, perfectly, as perfectly as the author, God, knows scripture before you can be a Christian?

    Well, that would take all the wisdom of God to know God's words perfectly through and through.

    That would take more than a life time of learning, of very, very hard work to achieve that.

    That is a lot of hard work to simply become a Christian.

    Is your salvation dependent on the accomplishments of Jesus Christ, God's grace to you

    or is your salvation dependent on your works and your works alone?

    Who died for you? Did you die for your own sins?

    Or did Jesus Christ die for your sins?

    How many verses does a person have to know perfectly in order to become a Christian?

    a. all of them

    b. your favorite verses

    c. none of them, they just have to do Romans 10:9 to receive salvation

    do you know the difference between receiving salvation and doing what God wants you to do with it?
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Slice it, dice it any way you want.
    I worship the same God that the Jews worshiped in the Old Testament. If you do, how would you explain trinity to them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    Luke 1:35

    And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.”

    Question 1: How many persons are seen in this verse?

    None.

    God is not a "person" per the English definition.
    The Holy Spirit is not an individuated hypostasis (nor is the Son).
    And the Son is yet to be born as the Incarnate Logos.

    Threeness is not automatically a Trinity according to the fallacious historical formulaic.
    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
    “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Q. E. D.

    By my post above, a non-Trinitarian is obligated to declare all Trinitarians as non-believers as the Scripture cannot support a contradiction. Either God and His special revelation—Scripture—teaches the Godhead is Triune or the Godhead is not. So believing a lie is not believing the truth of Scripture. Those that believe (i.e., faith - knowledge, assent, trust) the truth of Scripture are Christians, those that believe anything else are not Christians.
    The real problem with this "analysis" is that many conceptualize the alleged "persons" as "beings" or "manifestations" and have no idea what their actual professed doctrine IS.

    For most, their nominal understanding is just a short semi-descriptive sentence with a handful of English terms they redefine in their own ignorant minds. A good many are functional Tritheists or Modalists, with the occasional Arian or Unitarian/Adoptionist tossed in.

    I was lost for 28 years as a professing Trinitarian, and it was because of the modern dilutions of the doctrine.

    So... Since I deny the erroneous orthodox Multi-Hypostatic Uni-Phenomenal Trinity while professing all that I do... am I a non-Christian by your presented standard?

    Seeing as how, in my personal experience, the vast majority of professing Protestant Trinitarians AREN'T, your standard is quite a scathing impugnment of most modern Christians' salvation.

    Giving a "Christian" pass to this or that person under the guise that they are merely "confused" is effectively claiming that the God who saves and is saving has a divided house on matters essential to the faith.

    AMR
    So... Since so few could thoroughly recite, recount, and outline details such as fontal plenitude/innascibility, paternity/filiation, spiration/procession, and other minutiae, then they likely aren't saved.

    How simple can a misunderstood profession of the Trinity be? Can someone just regurgitate a sentence including three "persons" and that's the criteria?

    Or can someone examine and oppose the paradoxes of the deepest Scholastic delineations and be led of the Spirit that there are omissions and inclusions that are misplaced, etc.?

    Wouldn't it be more fitting if the threshold were a bit farther back? Deity of Christ, perhaps? To insist on a Trinity that is widely minimalized, hybridized, misrepresented, and misunderstood is naive.

    By that standard, I was saved when lost and now lost when saved. Unacceptable.

    I'd say anyone who considers the alleged three "persons" to have eternal individuated centers of sentient volitional consciousness is a Tritheist; and that cast net gathers most professing Trinitarians.
    Last edited by PneumaPsucheSoma; July 20th, 2015 at 10:49 AM.
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    Lightbulb Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

    No, all you need is to believe that Jesus was Christ. That's what makes of a believer a Christian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Slice it, dice it any way you want.
    No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iamaberean View Post
    I worship the same God that the Jews worshiped in the Old Testament. If you do, how would you explain trinity to them?
    The Trinity is the same God that the Jew's worshiped in the Old Testament.


    Daniel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Emanuel View Post
    The Trinity is the same God that the Jew's worshiped in the Old Testament.
    Daniel
    And how many scriptures do you have to mark out to come to that conclusion.

    I find 1,479 scriptures where LORD and God are used, that means Jehovah God. They worshiped only one God and his name is Jehovah.

    Ask a Jew and they will tell you there are many gods, but only one Jehovah.

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