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Thread: Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

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    Gold level Subscriber drbrumley's Avatar
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    I have told Meshak before, and anyone who listens, Try to explain the Trinity, and you may lose your mind; Deny it, and you may lose your soul.

    Oh how I love Dr Rogers quips
    If any of my views seem to be strange or new to you, it is to be hoped that you will not close your mind to them, but will emulate the noble Bereans, and not only read and study the chapters would discuss, but will also search the Scriptures to see whether these things be so.

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    Over 5000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    I have told Meshak before, and anyone who listens, Try to explain the Trinity, and you may lose your mind; Deny it, and you may lose your soul.

    Oh how I love Dr Rogers quips
    There have been Pagan trinities around since the day of Abraham, and that is what made the monotheism faith of Abraham unique. The Pagan trinities were also three persons revealed in one god.

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    Over 5000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    Non-Trinitarians believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They believe Yahwah is the Father and only true God, they believe the Son is the Messiah from Heaven, they believe Holy Spirit is a name title for Yahwah our Holy Father.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
    "The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
    Those involved in Philosophy were the Gnostics, they introduced the Sunday Sabbath, Trinitarianism, Hell, Messiah worship, authority of the Pope; the titles, Father, Lord, Rabbi, Teacher, Master.

    There were two different groups of Gnostic's during the first centuries AD.

    The first group of Gnostic's were opposed to Christianity.
    The other group of Gnostic's were not opposed, and joined Pagan notions to Christianity.

    The Gnostic Christians believed in Sunday Sabbath, authority of the Pope, and Trinitarianism, while the Judaizing Christians were opposed to such things as Catholicism [Universalism.]

    1 Tim 6:20
    "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called."

    The "oppositions of science falsely so called." is the opposition to Jewish and Pagan Gnosticism.

    Science is "gnosis" in the Greek.

    Philosophy and Gnosticism is the "profane and vain babblings" the Congregations had to combat.

    Albert Pike, a high prophet of Freemasonry, spoke on the origin of Trinitarianism. In his secret book "Morals and Dogma" he says of the Kabbalist "Jews were the direct precursors of Gnosticism," their Kabbalist doctrine is derived from their captivity while in Babylon.

    Philo of Alexandria was a Jew who played a key role in the development of the Trinitarian theory. Pike says, he was a Kabbalist "a initiate of the mysteries."

    Philo introduced the idea of a trinity to the Hellenistic Jews of Alexandria.
    Philo did not equate the three members of his trinity. He wrote that “the middle person of the three,” was Yahweh, the Father of the Universe, who is uncreated and unbegotten. God, the Father of the Universe was accompanied by two “body-guards”: the creative power and the royal power. God being greater than them. These ideas of Philo made a great impact on Christianity.

    Trinity
    In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases came from Plato, through the teachings of Valentinus. Valentinus is quoted as teaching that God is three, three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

    These men also taught three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. It was believed he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but he was discovered to have taken this from Hermes and Plato.

    Valentinus (also spelled Valentinius) (c.100 - c.160) was known as a early Christian Gnostic Theologian.

    It should be noted that Nag Hammadi library Sethian text such as Trimorphic Protennoia identify Gnosticism as also professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
    "The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."

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    Over 5000 post club Cruciform's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    Non-Trinitarians believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They believe Yahwah is the Father and only true God, they believe the Son is the Messiah from Heaven, they believe Holy Spirit is a name title for Yahwah our Holy Father.
    Therefore, you would qualify as one who knowingly denies and rejects the Trinity, and who therefore cannot be considered a "Christian" (Post #3).
    "The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)

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    Over 5000 post club Cruciform's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    There have been Pagan trinities around since the day of Abraham...
    No there haven't. There have been tritheisms, not trinities. The doctrine of the Trinity is absolutely unique to the Christian faith.
    "The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)

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    Over 500 post club fishrovmen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    Now trinity is not even written in scripture.
    [/QUOTE]
    The only three in one trinity in the whole bible is here. The dragon, devil, and satan.[/QUOTE]

    Which is it Squeaky?
    Omniscience limited
    Prophetic guesses
    Election by observation
    No future yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruciform View Post
    No there haven't. There have been tritheisms, not trinities. The doctrine of the Trinity is absolutely unique to the Christian faith.
    Knowing Jesus heart to heart is the only means of being saved from the wrath to come. (either kind, near or far)

    LA

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    The following is taken from CARM.org.

    Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
    by Matt Slick

    In one sense you do not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, but in another sense you do. Let me explain. The Bible does not tell us that we must believe in the Trinity in order to become saved, that is, to become a Christian. On the other hand, true Christians will end up believing in the Trinity because it is the proper teaching concerning God's nature that has been revealed to us in Scripture. So, though someone may not understand the Trinity when he or she becomes a Christian, eventually he will end up believing in it because he's a Christian.

    The doctrine of the Trinity is the proper Biblical teaching concerning the nature of God. It is one of the defining elements of the Christian faith. The Trinity, like the deity of Christ (John 8:24; John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9), Christ's physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17), and justification by faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:28; 4:1-5; 5:1; Galatians 2:21) are among the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. To deny any of these is to deny what makes Christianity Christian. But, I want to make it clear that we believe these things because they are true and because the Holy Spirit who indwells Christians bears witness of truth (John 14:26; 15:26).

    It is not believing in the Trinity that makes us Christian. Rather, it is being a Christian (and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) that enables us to believe in the Trinity. So, in one sense it's not a requirement to affirm the doctrines the Trinity in order to become saved. However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26) in the Trinity as true. This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity is probably not truly saved.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    The following is taken from CARM.org.

    Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
    by Matt Slick

    In one sense you do not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, but in another sense you do. Let me explain. The Bible does not tell us that we must believe in the Trinity in order to become saved, that is, to become a Christian. On the other hand, true Christians will end up believing in the Trinity because it is the proper teaching concerning God's nature that has been revealed to us in Scripture. So, though someone may not understand the Trinity when he or she becomes a Christian, eventually he will end up believing in it because he's a Christian.

    The doctrine of the Trinity is the proper Biblical teaching concerning the nature of God. It is one of the defining elements of the Christian faith. The Trinity, like the deity of Christ (John 8:24; John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9), Christ's physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17), and justification by faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:28; 4:1-5; 5:1; Galatians 2:21) are among the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. To deny any of these is to deny what makes Christianity Christian. But, I want to make it clear that we believe these things because they are true and because the Holy Spirit who indwells Christians bears witness of truth (John 14:26; 15:26).

    It is not believing in the Trinity that makes us Christian. Rather, it is being a Christian (and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) that enables us to believe in the Trinity. So, in one sense it's not a requirement to affirm the doctrines the Trinity in order to become saved. However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26) in the Trinity as true. This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity is probably not truly saved.

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    I said
    How can reasonably intelligent people believe in something that is contrary to scripture. And just blindly accept it. The Word says the Word of God is perfect and reveals everything we want to know. That there is NOTHING HIDDEN that will not be revealed.

    Heb 4:12-13
    12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
    (NKJ)

    Mark 4:22-23
    22 "For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light.
    23 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."
    (NKJ)

    I think you all are the true definition of the blind sheep. You admit you cant explain it. You admit no one really knows. And yet you blindly stand up for it.

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    . Eeset's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity is probably not truly saved.
    Probably? How weak can you be? Are you willing to remove that word from the sentence and stand by what remains?

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    TOL Subscriber PneumaPsucheSoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    I have told Meshak before, and anyone who listens, Try to explain the Trinity, and you may lose your mind; Deny it, and you may lose your soul.

    Oh how I love Dr Rogers quips
    This really is the silliest kind of statement ever.

    The Trinity doctrine is extensively formulated, and every detail can be understood from that standpoint whether one affirms or denies the doctrine.

    Most don't bother to even know the depths and details of a knowable doctrine formulated by men that can be understood; instead making supercilious over-simplified comments like those from allegedly profound Baptist icons.

    When a professing Trinitarian can cogently discuss fontal plenitude/innascibility, paternity/filiation, and spiration/procession with some stewardship of history and applied exegesis for an apologetic, I'll take them seriously enough to argue minutiae of Theology Proper.

    This simple pronounced bare assertion of a simpleton preacher is fallacious, and it fosters and condones laziness, lethargy, ignorance, and indoctrination.

    I guess all the Trinitarian theologians lost their mind in explaining the Trinity. Denying the doctrinal formulaic of men is not the criteria for "losing one's soul".

    (This is not personal about you, just the inane quote.)
    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
    “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeset View Post
    Probably? How weak can you be? Are you willing to remove that word from the sentence and stand by what remains?
    Why should I change it? I didn't write it.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    I said
    How can reasonably intelligent people believe in something that is contrary to scripture. And just blindly accept it. The Word says the Word of God is perfect and reveals everything we want to know. That there is NOTHING HIDDEN that will not be revealed.

    Heb 4:12-13
    12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
    (NKJ)

    Mark 4:22-23
    22 "For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light.
    23 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."
    (NKJ)

    I think you all are the true definition of the blind sheep. You admit you cant explain it. You admit no one really knows. And yet you blindly stand up for it.
    I heard a TV preacher tell that the Holy Spirit said to him that He was not comfortable with being referred to as a spirit.

    The TV preacher did not get it, because he is a trinitarian.

    Do you all get it?

    (the same preacher claims aborted fetuses will be saved?)

    LA

  16. #30
    Over 4000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    There are many things you do not have to believe in to be a Christian.

    You do not have to believe in the Devil, although you could.

    You do not have to believe in Noah's adventures, although you could.

    You do not have to believe in speaking in tongues, though you could.

    You do not have to believe that if you click your heels together, while wearing ruby slippers and repeating, "there's no place like home", though that has nothing to do with being a Christian.

    You do not have to believe that Peter walked on water.

    You do not have to believe in a trinity, and click your heels together.

    For clarification purposes, do you mean

    a. become a Christian, if so, in that case all you have to do is do Romans 10:9-10 to become a Christian

    b. live the lifestyle of a Christian as scripture teaches

    what are you asking?
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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