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Thread: the abomination of desolation

  1. #151
    Silver Member SaulToPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    can you show me where it says that?
    Compare Daniel with 1 and 2 Thess, and the Revelation.
    Bible Study. Believe what you read, take God at face value.
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    You're too literal to get it.
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    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    the abomination of desolation

    found three times in daniel but the first two are quite telling
    you may not find this in your bible

    so what is in the holy place now?
    the dome of the rock
    and
    it causes desolation
    it is preventing the third temple
    put there by the second beast of the apocalypse
    the fourth beast of daniel
    different from all the rest

    here are the clues
    what happened to the temple place?

    Matthew 24:15New International Version (NIV)

    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—


    Daniel 9:27New International Version (NIV)

    27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’[b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]”[e]

    Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 BC

    the second beast of daniel

    here there is a temple to desecrate and this temple was destroyed later by the third beast of daniel, the roman empire

    Daniel 11:31New International Version (NIV)

    31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

    the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD

    the fourth beast of daniel

    there is no temple here

    only the temple fortress or the holy place and this is the abomination referred to by Jesus

    once this premise is established it is easy to show that the last two beasts of daniel are the two beasts of the apocalypse

    back to the apocalypse
    so what is in the holy place now?
    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

  3. #153
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    a place
    is
    a place
    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

  4. #154
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    The Mt24A passage is not futurist. Neither is its earlier parallel Mk 13. Those passages are about 1st century Judea. Check all the details for that. At Mt24:29, it goes future and worldwide, and is expected, originally, to be right after the horrible time in Judea.

    However, an allowance is made that the final day of worldwide judgement may be later, and we know it was.

    The future worldwide day of judgement has no Judean detail to it; it would make no sense to.

    The expression AofD started as the rebellion that desolates in Dan 8:13, a rebellion that would take place during the 4th kingdom that overran Israel, mentioned later in ch 8 and 9.

    Christ was speaking of a person. Let the reader understand that. It would not be an image placed by an outside party. it would the the noxious actions of the rebellion and its leader; he would be found setting up in the temple and would ruin the country. There are events in the Great Revolt of 66-72 that follow this close enough.

    Luke (Paul's) was written last, latest. When he comes close to this, it is no longer about watching for a person, but watching out for the city to be encircled. The Romans did encircle of course as part of their siege works, and this is certainly what is meant in 19:43, which passage is full of expressions from the first destruction of Jerusalem, but updated with Roman military vocabulary, making it unmistakable. However, we should note that Festus sought to protectively encircle Jerusalem even before that, but died during the constsruction and it was stopped and used against the city, once the zealot rebellion had overrun it. Festus, Agrippa and Bernice were interested in preserving the city as members of Judaism, and tried to stop the zealots.

    There is also an account (in Josephus' JEWISH WAR) of Bernice making a direct appeal to a particularly horrible Roman figure, Florus, because he was agitating the rebellious zealots and trying to get them to fight.

    So I think Festus effort to protect the city is signal enough for Christians to leave the city. Some stayed and were miraculously able to escape when the surrounding by Roman siege was interrupted a couple years later.

    But Christ's remarks about how the zealots/Judaizers would ruin the city are not directed at Roman admins; they are all directed at the zealots; 'leistes' in Lk 19:46 is not a common thief; it is a terrorist, an insurgent. Part of this was to show in Luke-Acts that Paul was not part of any such rebellion at all.

    Many, many passages in Paul refer to the 2nd coming in judgement being right round the corner. I don't know when 2 Peter was written but it appears to deal with this difficulty ('where is the coming?' 'some things in Paul's letters are hard to understand'). Once 72 went by and the world continued on, only the basic instruction to keep proclaiming Christ as Lord to all men, and his eventual return in judgement is clear.
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  5. #155
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    I agree entirely that what Jesus is talking about are the events to take place in Judea leading up to and during the impending destruction of the holy city in AD 70.

    So how do you reconcile that the parallel passages of Matt 24:15KJV and Luke 21:20KJV which, taken together, identify a standing army as the abomination that makes desolate spoken of by Daniel? That army was the Roman army that compassed Jerusalem and finally stood "where it ought not"; in the temple.

    There seems to be no question that Jesus' very words identify the AofD prophesied by Daniel.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The Mt24A passage is not futurist. Neither is its earlier parallel Mk 13. Those passages are about 1st century Judea. Check all the details for that. At Mt24:29, it goes future and worldwide, and is expected, originally, to be right after the horrible time in Judea.

    However, an allowance is made that the final day of worldwide judgement may be later, and we know it was.

    The future worldwide day of judgement has no Judean detail to it; it would make no sense to.

    The expression AofD started as the rebellion that desolates in Dan 8:13, a rebellion that would take place during the 4th kingdom that overran Israel, mentioned later in ch 8 and 9.

    Christ was speaking of a person. Let the reader understand that. It would not be an image placed by an outside party. it would the the noxious actions of the rebellion and its leader; he would be found setting up in the temple and would ruin the country. There are events in the Great Revolt of 66-72 that follow this close enough.

    Luke (Paul's) was written last, latest. When he comes close to this, it is no longer about watching for a person, but watching out for the city to be encircled. The Romans did encircle of course as part of their siege works, and this is certainly what is meant in 19:43, which passage is full of expressions from the first destruction of Jerusalem, but updated with Roman military vocabulary, making it unmistakable. However, we should note that Festus sought to protectively encircle Jerusalem even before that, but died during the constsruction and it was stopped and used against the city, once the zealot rebellion had overrun it. Festus, Agrippa and Bernice were interested in preserving the city as members of Judaism, and tried to stop the zealots.

    There is also an account (in Josephus' JEWISH WAR) of Bernice making a direct appeal to a particularly horrible Roman figure, Florus, because he was agitating the rebellious zealots and trying to get them to fight.

    So I think Festus effort to protect the city is signal enough for Christians to leave the city. Some stayed and were miraculously able to escape when the surrounding by Roman siege was interrupted a couple years later.

    But Christ's remarks about how the zealots/Judaizers would ruin the city are not directed at Roman admins; they are all directed at the zealots; 'leistes' in Lk 19:46 is not a common thief; it is a terrorist, an insurgent. Part of this was to show in Luke-Acts that Paul was not part of any such rebellion at all.

    Many, many passages in Paul refer to the 2nd coming in judgement being right round the corner. I don't know when 2 Peter was written but it appears to deal with this difficulty ('where is the coming?' 'some things in Paul's letters are hard to understand'). Once 72 went by and the world continued on, only the basic instruction to keep proclaiming Christ as Lord to all men, and his eventual return in judgement is clear.
    All made up. Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    I agree entirely that what Jesus is talking about are the events to take place in Judea leading up to and during the impending destruction of the holy city in AD 70.

    So how do you reconcile that the parallel passages of Matt 24:15KJV and Luke 21:20KJV which, taken together, identify a standing army as the abomination that makes desolate spoken of by Daniel? That army was the Roman army that compassed Jerusalem and finally stood "where it ought not"; in the temple.

    There seems to be no question that Jesus' very words identify the AofD prophesied by Daniel.
    Holy city? its metaphoric symbolism that takes place in the only temple I AM dwells in which is in us 1Cor 3:16 Acts 17:24. Traditions of men made with hands who invented God under the time deception that doesn't even exist in the eternal.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    so what is in the holy place now?
    The mind partaking of the tree of good and evil a duality that intellectualizes instead of taking no thought about tomorrow, these things are symbolic Galatians 4:24.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

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    What grows on the ground that is the concerned with this world? Matt 13:22, John 18:36, Matt 4:16-17. Looking in darkness/time which is this world/OZ is futile concerning something that is already here.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The Mt24A passage is not futurist. Neither is its earlier parallel Mk 13. Those passages are about 1st century Judea. Check all the details for that. At Mt24:29, it goes future and worldwide, and is expected, originally, to be right after the horrible time in Judea.

    However, an allowance is made that the final day of worldwide judgement may be later, and we know it was.

    The future worldwide day of judgement has no Judean detail to it; it would make no sense to.

    The expression AofD started as the rebellion that desolates in Dan 8:13, a rebellion that would take place during the 4th kingdom that overran Israel, mentioned later in ch 8 and 9.

    Christ was speaking of a person. Let the reader understand that. It would not be an image placed by an outside party. it would the the noxious actions of the rebellion and its leader; he would be found setting up in the temple and would ruin the country. There are events in the Great Revolt of 66-72 that follow this close enough.

    Luke (Paul's) was written last, latest. When he comes close to this, it is no longer about watching for a person, but watching out for the city to be encircled. The Romans did encircle of course as part of their siege works, and this is certainly what is meant in 19:43, which passage is full of expressions from the first destruction of Jerusalem, but updated with Roman military vocabulary, making it unmistakable. However, we should note that Festus sought to protectively encircle Jerusalem even before that, but died during the constsruction and it was stopped and used against the city, once the zealot rebellion had overrun it. Festus, Agrippa and Bernice were interested in preserving the city as members of Judaism, and tried to stop the zealots.

    There is also an account (in Josephus' JEWISH WAR) of Bernice making a direct appeal to a particularly horrible Roman figure, Florus, because he was agitating the rebellious zealots and trying to get them to fight.

    So I think Festus effort to protect the city is signal enough for Christians to leave the city. Some stayed and were miraculously able to escape when the surrounding by Roman siege was interrupted a couple years later.

    But Christ's remarks about how the zealots/Judaizers would ruin the city are not directed at Roman admins; they are all directed at the zealots; 'leistes' in Lk 19:46 is not a common thief; it is a terrorist, an insurgent. Part of this was to show in Luke-Acts that Paul was not part of any such rebellion at all.

    Many, many passages in Paul refer to the 2nd coming in judgement being right round the corner. I don't know when 2 Peter was written but it appears to deal with this difficulty ('where is the coming?' 'some things in Paul's letters are hard to understand'). Once 72 went by and the world continued on, only the basic instruction to keep proclaiming Christ as Lord to all men, and his eventual return in judgement is clear.
    Post 137 explains in detail why the AoD is a future event and can be nothing else but.

  11. #161
    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rondonmonson View Post
    Post 137 explains in detail why the AoD is a future event and can be nothing else but.
    No it doesn't.
    It explains only your misinterpretation based on a system you have decided to adhere to.

    Jesus tells us plainly that the AofD is the Roman army.
    You will have to decide if you will choose to believe Him or be led away from the truth by your preconceptions.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    No it doesn't.
    It explains only your misinterpretation based on a system you have decided to adhere to.

    Jesus tells us plainly that the AofD is the Roman army.
    You will have to decide if you will choose to believe Him or be led away from the truth by your preconceptions.
    Jesus tells us that this will happen during the END TIMES and if God did not shorten the Events NO FLESH would be saved. Daniel 12:1-2 tells us about these SAME TROUBLES and it shows the Rapture happens at the same time as the Troubles.

    Daniel 12:12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand } 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out,.......

    The better question is how can anyone not see the obvious? Now I understand why Jesus said seeing they see not, hearing they hear not. I just do not get how anyone can look at those three passages and not understand the Abomination of Desolation is an END TIME EVENT !! Its astonishing.

    Rev. 12 the Woman (Israel flees) flees for 1260 days when the Beast takes over Jerusalem. We see that Jesus said this would be a time of trouble like never seen before, and he was quoting Daniel, and the time of trouble in Daniel happens when Micheal stands up, and the Rapture happens in verse 2, its the same as Rev. 12, Michael casts Satan out of Heaven.

    Jesus stated that if he did not shorten the time no flesh would be saved. That clearly did not happen 2000 years ago. He also gave you a clue to what would happen IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days, he would return, so your timing is proven wrong by Jesus' own words, by 2000 years.
    Last edited by Rondonmonson; September 19th, 2017 at 10:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rondonmonson View Post

    The better question is how can anyone not see the obvious? Now I understand why Jesus said seeing they see not, hearing they hear not. I just do not get how anyone can look at those three passages and not understand the Abomination of Desolation is an END TIME EVENT !! Its astonishing.
    There is no question that the appearance of the abomination of desolation was an event to occur during the times of the end. The question is - what end is pictured?

    If we allow God to speak for Himself, we find that the end that the apostles were told about and finally understood was the end of the age, the Jewish economy, the sacrifices, the trappings, legalism, the Shekinah glory abiding in the temple, and everything that accompanied the types and shadows that spoke of the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

    1 Cor 10:11KJV, 1 John 2:18KJV, 1 Pet 1:20KJV, 1 Pet 4:7KJV

    It's so easy to have a narcissistic view of Scripture; that is, interpreting with our eyes and from current events. I am convinced this is why many tend not to allow the Bible to interpret itself. There are many STOP/YIELD signs in God's Word that often go unheeded.

    One example is that God devotes all of Acts 2 to telling us that the gospel was preached for a witness to representatives out of every nation under heaven. This is a fulfilled prophecy of Jesus from Matthew 24. Yet many assume that this is still future; simply because they do not consider the whole counsel of God.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Further to Ronmon in above post:
    The NT is loaded with indicators that that generation was to be the last, the end of the world. Everything I find about the upheaval in Judea in the 1st century says that the end and final judgement were expected 'right after' it (the turmoil in Israel).

    Even while speaking to people about marriage 4 countries away, in Corinth, Paul says the time is short, don't bother, pursue the mission.

    Even so, there are many things going on today are nerve wracking enough to feel like it is the end, and then we learn that people have felt this way hundreds of times since Christ, for solid reason.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    Another misunderstanding of Jesus' words in Matthew 24 concerns the mention of the sun, moon and stars. Certainly the sun being darkened and the moon not giving its light, and the stars falling from heaven would make us think of a cataclysmic event in our solar system. But when all of Scripture is brought to bear on its interpretation, we see the real meaning.

    Jesus was borrowing from the language of the prophets the words necessary to convey the idea of the impending judgement about to befall Jerusalem and the entire Jewish system. It was time to make way for the Kingdom of God to spread around the world. This necessitated the elimination of the old system and God chose the heathen might of the Roman Empire to accomplish His purpose.

    Isaiah predicted the fall of Babylon at the hands of the Medes and Persians with exactly the same language. Is 13:10KJV.
    Egypt was overthrown by Nebechadnezzar and Ezekiel prophesied it. Eze 32:7KJV

    It is not surprising that this language is used often by the prophets. It was probably Joseph whose dream embedded in the Jewish culture the idea of Jacob (the sun), his wife (the moon), his eleven brothers (the stars) as representative of the nation. Indeed, it did become the nation of Israel under God.

    Jesus uses the same metaphors that his listeners would understand, if they were biblicists, in explaining what was to befall Jerusalem.

    But this leads into the next problem of this being the greatest tribulation ever to be witnessed in the world. Was there never greater loss of life or greater hardships in history? Even if we forget about the millions who died and the atrocities described by Josephus, what made this the greatest of all tribulations was that God judged His own people. That can never be repeated.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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