ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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RobE

RobE

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Philetus said:
Speaking of vomit; I've missed you too. :chuckle:

Phil
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Actually I was thinking of a different proverb:

You can't teach an old dog new tricks.​

Perhaps this one would have been more appropriate:

"Those who sleep with dogs will rise with fleas." - Italian Proverb​

Anyway, I heard you had some personal problem and I assumed it was illness. If so, I hope you feel better. If something worse, you have my sympathy.
 
Philetus

Philetus

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RobE said:
Actually I was thinking of a different proverb:

You can't teach an old dog new tricks.​

Perhaps this one would have been more appropriate:

"Those who sleep with dogs will rise with fleas." - Italian Proverb​

Anyway, I heard you had some personal problem and I assumed it was illness. If so, I hope you feel better. If something worse, you have my sympathy.
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Thanks ... I think. However, the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated. Sorry to disappoint so many.:p

The first one came to mind. (See earlier post.) As for the second ... it depends on the dog.

Growing up in Kentucky, my dad and I raised bird dogs. Dad always said there were three rules for gettin' a dog.

1. Get a real dog, so when somebody asked 'whats that?' you can answer with a straight face.
2. Get a healthy dog and don't give it any or your diseases.
3. Get a dog you really like, cause your gonna have to sleep with it someday.​

Appalachian folk lore: “If your dog has flees and you don’t then your dog has been sleeping around.”

Want to put the old "man's best friend" to the test? Lock your wife and your dog in the trunk of your car for an hour and see which one is happy to see you. Try it and find out just how 'open' your future can be ... if you still have a future, that is.

The mention of flees always brings to mind the story of David running for his life from Saul. David accuses the king of being a "flee flicker". (later part of 1Sam, I think.) While I have had some physical issues to deal with this winter, my primary reason for staying away from this thread was primarily due to flee flicking fatigue.

P
 
lee_merrill

lee_merrill

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Not meaning to hound anyone--but I am wondering how it is God knows a remnant will be saved. I have been told God knows group averages, and also that God can determine who is saved and who is not saved. I have been told that this is an estimate, and that this means "all who will be saved, will be saved," i.e. the remnant is just whoever will be saved.

None of these, I find satisfactory, for a remnant means relatively few, and these being saved is God's sentence on earth, not his observation, nor some form of estimate.

A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overwhelming and righteous. (Isaiah 10:21-22)

And then later, "all Israel will be saved," so such predictions are not simply based on human recalcitrance--this is another answer I have been given.
 
G

godrulz

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Within the concept of remnant, it could be 1000 or 1 million or more. It is open-ended, not fixed to the last person. Your verse may also have had historical proximal fulfillment (or is it repeated in the NT?).
 
lee_merrill

lee_merrill

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godrulz said:
Within the concept of remnant, it could be 1000 or 1 million or more. It is open-ended, not fixed to the last person.
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Yes, it could even be one--as with Noah--but the fulfillment depends on free-will decisions1, this prediction cannot be known with certainty without definite knowledge of free-will decisions.

Your verse may also have had historical proximal fulfillment (or is it repeated in the NT?).
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Paul repeats it, and applies through the time of Isaiah, to his day and beyond, in fact, until we see "all Israel" saved, God's sentence here is continuing.

Regards,
Lee

[1] If you hold that saving repentance when it occurs, is a free decision.
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

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godrulz said:
Within the concept of remnant, it could be 1000 or 1 million or more. It is open-ended, not fixed to the last person. Your verse may also have had historical proximal fulfillment (or is it repeated in the NT?).
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Lee is apparently going to continue to ask answered questions. I think he's out of real objections.

Muz
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

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lee_merrill said:
Not meaning to hound anyone--but I am wondering how it is God knows a remnant will be saved.
Click to expand...

I wonder how God knew that the suffering Messiah would have no bones broken.
Breaking the legs of the crucified was standard practice, the two thiefs had their legs broken. Yet, the Messiah had no broken bones...just as prophesied.
 
Philetus

Philetus

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SaulToPaul said:
I wonder how God knew that the suffering Messiah would have no bones broken.
Breaking the legs of the crucified was standard practice, the two thiefs had their legs broken. Yet, the Messiah had no broken bones...just as prophesied.
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Consider: God could actually prevent the Messiah's bones from being broken. Go figure! (i.e. imagine that.) I don't see such knowledge as EDF as it is a witness of omnipotence.

Maybe in the 'fore-knowledge' that laying down one's life and surrendering one's spirit into the 'hands of the Father' rather than clinging to life and fighting for one more breath precluded the necessity to rush death by breaking the legs. The Father, Son and Spirit just beat the executioners to the punch.

Philetus
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

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Pretty amazing that Jesus was crucified at the time of the Passover with no broken bones, given the fact that the rulers of Israel and the Romans had free will to break his bones and crucify him 24 hours earlier if they so desired.

In the OT, the passover lamb could have no broken bones.
 
Philetus

Philetus

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SaulToPaul said:
Pretty amazing that Jesus was crucified at the time of the Passover with no broken bones, given the fact that the rulers of Israel and the Romans had free will to break his bones and crucify him 24 hours earlier if they so desired.

In the OT, the passover lamb could have no broken bones.
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God's ability to intervene and see that what He purposes isn't thwarted by the free will of others is no less than amazing. Even so it goes to show that nobody gets their way 100% of the time.

Philetus
 
Philetus

Philetus

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first Roman soldier: "Good! This ones already dead. I want to get home before supper gets cold."

second Roman soldier: "Darn! I'd rather break bones than eat."

... some of the people some of the time ...

Philetus
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

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SaulToPaul said:
Pretty amazing that Jesus was crucified at the time of the Passover with no broken bones, given the fact that the rulers of Israel and the Romans had free will to break his bones and crucify him 24 hours earlier if they so desired.

In the OT, the passover lamb could have no broken bones.
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You honestly think that God is unable to prevent bones from being broken?

Muz
 
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godrulz

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God prevented the mob from pushing Jesus over a cliff before His time. He can prevent breaking bones. Jesus put His head down and then gave up the spirit. He controlled the moment of His death. Breaking bones would speed up the death because they could not push up to breath better. Since He died sooner than usual (undetr His control), there was no need to break the bones.

The OT reference is also not necessarily predictive prophecy. His death, not broken legs, provides redemption. The OT verse could be applied by way of illustration to the reality after the fact. If they would have broke His bones, the Spirit would not inspire this application in the Bible. It would also not affect the plan of redemption since He still dies and sheds blood. He fulfills OT types, but it does not have to be identical to every OT imagery/practice (Jesus is not an animal).
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

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godrulz said:
God prevented the mob from pushing Jesus over a cliff before His time. He can prevent breaking bones. Jesus put His head down and then gave up the spirit. He controlled the moment of His death. Breaking bones would speed up the death because they could not push up to breath better. Since He died sooner than usual (undetr His control), there was no need to break the bones.

The OT reference is also not necessarily predictive prophecy. His death, not broken legs, provides redemption. The OT verse could be applied by way of illustration to the reality after the fact. If they would have broke His bones, the Spirit would not inspire this application in the Bible. It would also not affect the plan of redemption since He still dies and sheds blood. He fulfills OT types, but it does not have to be identical to every OT imagery/practice (Jesus is not an animal).
Click to expand...

So, you wouldn't have a serious problem if they had broken Jesus' legs?
If they had, it would tell me that he wasn't the Messiah...an imposter.
 
Clete

Clete

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STP,

I think you are missing the point. We would have a major problem if any of Jesus' bones had been broken. The point is that God is capable of figuring out how to prevent the breaking of Jesus' bones even with the future being open. Indeed, an open future makes God's ability to predict the future and control and manipulate the circumstances of the present all the more impressive.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
lee_merrill

lee_merrill

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themuzicman said:
Muz: Lee is apparently going to continue to ask answered questions. I think he's out of real objections.

Lee: I have been told God knows group averages, and also that God can determine who is saved and who is not saved. I have been told that this [a remnant will be saved] is an estimate, and that this means "all who will be saved, will be saved," i.e. the remnant is just whoever will be saved.

None of these I find satisfactory, for a remnant means relatively few, and these being saved is God's sentence on earth, not his observation, nor some estimate.

A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overwhelming and righteous. (Isaiah 10:21-22)

And then later, "all Israel will be saved," so such predictions are not simply based on human recalcitrance--this is another answer I have been given.
Click to expand...
So yes, I have been answered, what I suppose I am wondering is which answer is the real answer! These answers are inconsistent with each other, and as I said, unsatisfactory for various reasons.

themuzicman said:
You honestly think that God is unable to prevent bones from being broken?
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Yorzhik thinks God cannot have my palms be up on the table.

Philetus said:
Honestly Lee, How does God know anything? (It's a serious question.)
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How indeed? How can he know everything that's going on everywhere in the whole universe? I have no idea...

Blessings,
Lee <- Has dogged determination
 
G

godrulz

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SaulToPaul said:
So, you wouldn't have a serious problem if they had broken Jesus' legs?
If they had, it would tell me that he wasn't the Messiah...an imposter.
Click to expand...


Moot point since the legs were not broke and Scripture applied in that way.

Whether Jesus had brown hair and brown eyes, blond hair and blue eyes, was 5' 10" or taller, had a heart rate of 80 or 120, coughed or not, sprained ankle or not, legs broke or not, etc. does not change His identity as the Word made flesh, the God-Man, the Messiah. Redemption or Messiahship does not hinge on the exact details before and after His death. The key is His virgin conception, Deity, humanity, death, and resurrection. Other things are relatively incidental (you are looking in a rear view mirror and majoring on minors and minoring on majors).
 
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Philetus

Philetus

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lee_merrill said:
So yes, I have been answered, what I suppose I am wondering is which answer is the real answer! These answers are inconsistent with each other, and as I said, unsatisfactory for various reasons.


Yorzhik thinks God cannot have my palms be up on the table.


How indeed? How can he know everything that's going on everywhere in the whole universe? I have no idea...

Blessings,
Lee <- Has dogged determination
Click to expand...

How? Let me suggest a hint: omnipresence.


God can have you place your hands on the table palms-up if you are in communion with Him through His Spirit and surrendered to His will. But, why would He will your hands palms-up unless it had something to do with His intent and purpose? And even if you refused to offer your hands palms-up on the table, don't you think God could accomplish His intent and purpose through another's hands? And even though God took a risk on you and you refused His offer to be included He could accomplish it another way without you; through someone more willing. You lose! And because you are so stubborn you are lost to God even though all you had to do was offer your self ... palms-up ... which is your reasonable service.

Philetus

the flee infested :dead:
 
Philetus

Philetus

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godrulz said:
Moot point since the legs were broke and Scripture applied in that way.

Whether Jesus had brown hair and brown eyes, blond hair and blue eyes, was 5' 10" or taller, had a heart rate of 80 or 120, coughed or not, sprained ankle or not, legs broke or not, etc. does not change His identity as the Word made flesh, the God-Man, the Messiah. Redemption or Messiahship does not hinge on the exact details before and after His death. The key is His virgin conception, Deity, humanity, death, and resurrection. Other things are relatively incidental (you are looking in a rear view mirror and majoring on minors and minoring on majors).
Click to expand...

I hate this spread it around first thing.

Good lines, GR, but I think you meant weren't broke. Anyway, I can't imagine staking my faith on the fact that Isaiah said He wasn't much to look at when all the pictures of Him are so purdy. :chuckle:

Philetus
 
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