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  1. #76
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    This post reminds me of our disagreement over 1 John 1. That chapter deals with when we first come into the light. We cannot deny we are sinners in need of salvation, because if we did, it would be impossible to believe the Gospel in the first place.

    Sin belongs on the other side of the cross, Jerry. Don't bring it over to this side.
    If I was in error with what I said about confessing our sins then why did you not tell me where I am wrong? Where is your proof?

    And if I remember right you said that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to unbelievers. Is that what you tell unbelievers? If they will confess their sins then those sins will be forgiven and they will be cleansed from unrighteousness?

    If that is what you tell them then your preaching is in vain because it is impossible that if an unbeliever confesses his sins that his sins will be forgiven.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If I was in error with what I said about confessing our sins then why did you not tell me where I am wrong? Where is your proof?

    And if I remember right you said that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to unbelievers. Is that what you tell unbelievers? If they will confess their sins then those sins will be forgiven and they will be cleansed from unrighteousness?

    If that is what you tell them then your preaching is in vain because it is impossible that if an unbeliever confesses his sins that his sins will be forgiven.
    Nice try ignoring the LIGHT John speaks of in that chapter. You've missed the entire point if you miss that.

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  4. #78
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Nice try ignoring the LIGHT John speaks of in that chapter. You've missed the entire point if you miss that.
    What is your point about the "LIGHT"?

    Please don't feel pressured to answer my question.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    What is your point about the "LIGHT"?

    Please don't feel pressured to answer my question.
    Ah, I knew you had a sweet side, Jerry. Thank you for your patience.


    My point about the light is the same as John's. (And knowing who the audience is makes all the difference.) It's why he stresses the LIGHT in that first chapter of his book and his letter.

    John 1:7-9 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    God is Light and Jesus is the true Light. John is addressing a mixed group there....not all believers as you have said in the past. There are those who claim Jesus did not come in the flesh and those who claimed they had no sin because they had not "seen the LIGHT". None of those are believers yet. They are in darkness still. So when you quote verses from that chapter, you must keep that in mind or you end up trying to make them say what they were not intended to say.

    Those who deny Jesus is God in the flesh are still in darkness. Those who claim they have no sin have not yet had the LIGHT show them their sin. They might even think their dead works and various washings take care of any sin. This has nothing to do with "fellowship" per se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If I was in error with what I said about confessing our sins then why did you not tell me where I am wrong? Where is your proof?

    And if I remember right you said that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to unbelievers. Is that what you tell unbelievers? If they will confess their sins then those sins will be forgiven and they will be cleansed from unrighteousness?

    If that is what you tell them then your preaching is in vain because it is impossible that if an unbeliever confesses his sins that his sins will be forgiven.


    an unbeliever wouldn't confess their sins -
    do you confess your sins ? to another sinner ?
    God already knows -

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    John is addressing a mixed group there....not all believers as you have said in the past.
    So are you saying that these words are addressed to unbelievers:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    You would never tell an unbeliever that if they will just confess their sins then those sins will be forgiven.

    In order for an unbeliever to have his sins forgiven he must believe:

    "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

    If an unbeliever confesses his sins those sins will not be forgiven.

    So, again, the words at 1 John 1:9 are addressed to those who are already saved.

    Please don't feel pressured to answer what I said.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    an unbeliever wouldn't confess their sins -
    do you confess your sins ? to another sinner ?
    God already knows -
    I never said that 1John 1:9 is in regard to unbelievers. In fact, I think that it is glorydaz who thinks that.

  10. #83
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I never said that 1John 1:9 is in regard to unbelievers. In fact, I think that it is glorydaz who thinks that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So are you saying that these words are addressed to unbelievers:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    You would never tell an unbeliever that if they will just confess their sins then those sins will be forgiven.

    In order for an unbeliever to have his sins forgiven he must believe:

    "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).

    If an unbeliever confesses his sins those sins will not be forgiven.

    So, again, the words at 1 John 1:9 are addressed to those who are already saved.

    Please don't feel pressured to answer what I said.
    No, Jerry. Don't be jumping to conclusions like that. John is speaking of those who are exposed to the LIGHT and their reaction to that LIGHT. You have to pay close attention. Some "say" they have "seen the light", and others actually have "seen the light". John is comparing those who PROFESS, but still walk in darkness with those who actually come into the light. "If we say" and "If we walk"...

    The "claimers" are verses 6, 8, and 10 (black). They are liars and still walk in darkness.

    Verses 7 and 9 (red) are those who actually come into the light. They see their sin for what it is....the LIGHT has done it's work.

    1 John 1:6
    If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

    1 John 1:7
    But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    1 John 1:8
    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    1 John 1:9
    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    1 John 1:10
    If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

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  12. #84
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I never said that 1John 1:9 is in regard to unbelievers. In fact, I think that it is glorydaz who thinks that.
    Nope, you're mistaken. I said there are some who believe and others who only make claims. Remember, there were Jews who knew God is LIGHT, but denied Jesus is the true light. They claimed to have fellowship with God, but still walked in darkness because they denied our Lord. There were some who denied Jesus came in the flesh. There were some who claimed they could not sin even while they denied Jesus was the TRUE LIGHT, and the WORD was not in them...... they were not IN THE LIGHT. John is addressing the entire spectrum of people. You would have us believe that they are all believers and some of those believers walk in darkness. That's where you miss the boat. Believers are never in darkness. NEVER.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    John is addressing the entire spectrum of people.
    Then John must think that the Lord gave eternal life in the Son to "the entire spectrum of people" because here is what he said to those whom he addressed his epistle:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    Do you think that the entire spectrum of people have been given eternal life, and that life is in the Son?

    And are you now saying that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to believers?

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Then John must think that the Lord gave eternal life in the Son to "the entire spectrum of people" because here is what he said to those whom he addressed his epistle:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    Do you think that the entire spectrum of people have been given eternal life, and that life is in the Son?
    No, as I said, not everyone John writes his letter to are believers. Some merely claim to know God. Those who walk in darkness are not believers.

    And are you now saying that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to believers?
    That verse is written of those who walk in the light. What do you think that means?


    1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



    We see the same here. Are you claiming these are believers? Those who walk in darkness are still blind and have not the Truth in them.


    1 John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

    1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

    1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    No, as I said, not everyone John writes his letter to are believers. Some merely claim to know God. Those who walk in darkness are not believers.
    You are wrong. John wrote to believers, as witnessed by his words here:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    This is obviously speaking about believers. After all, John uses the pronoun "we" and if he was addressing unbelievers then he would be including himself as being an unbeliever.

    Here is an example of a Christian walking in darkness:

    "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).

    It is obvious that Peter was not walking in the light but instead he was walking in darkness.

    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    John certainly understood that Christians can and do sin. And the experiences of Peter that I quoted prove that Peter sinned.

    1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    We see the same here. Are you claiming these are believers? Those who walk in darkness are still blind and have not the Truth in them.
    I just cannot trick my mind into believing that John used the pronoun "we," putting himself in the category of being an unbeliever.

    [INDENT]1 John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
    Yes, the Christian has been given light but some of us stray from the light on occasion and walk in darkness. Just like Peter did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You are wrong. John wrote to believers, as witnessed by his words here:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).



    This is obviously speaking about believers. After all, John uses the pronoun "we" and if he was addressing unbelievers then he would be including himself as being an unbeliever.



    I just cannot trick my mind into believing that John used the pronoun "we," putting himself in the category of being an unbeliever.


    John was a Jew......"we Jews".

    Spoken to the Jew, but for us, as well. Which is why I said understanding the audience makes all the difference. Paul seems to agree with me on this.

    1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    John was a Jew......"we Jews".
    No, the use of the pronoun "we" is pointing to those writing the epistle:

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn.1:3-5).

    And you failed to address what I said here:

    Here is an example of a Christian walking in darkness:

    "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).

    Since Peter was not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel it is obvious that he was not walking in the light but instead he was walking in darkness.

    Now don't feel pressured to answer what I have said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No, the use of the pronoun "we" is pointing to those writing the epistle:

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn.1:3-5).

    And you failed to address what I said here:

    Here is an example of a Christian walking in darkness:

    "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).

    Since Peter was not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel it is obvious that he was not walking in the light but instead he was walking in darkness.

    Now don't feel pressured to answer what I have said.
    You just cannot but bait another into your corner.

    That is so Old School Mid-Acts - with its baiting, and interrogating, and performance based acceptance of others, all the while asserting it means well.

    All the while, making up its own, faulty logic as it goes; that those erroneous traditions it holds to - holdovers from the error of Acts Two Dispensationalism - might remain.

    1 John 1 is addressing the very same issue related throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John - the latter half of John 8, for example, or, say, the first eight verses or so of Matthew 3.

    You're just stuck in Old School Mid-Acts in several of your views as well as in your approach.

    All one has to do is apply the truth of Galatians 2:7-9 consistently no matter what sacred cow it ends up pointing one to have to let go of.

    It is how the sixth of the six Mid-Acts truths finally re-emerged - The Grace Life - in other words, the Grace Alternative to the traditions that still kept Mid-Acts under the bondage of Acts Dispensationalism's error - conditional blessings, etc.

    Unfortunately, conditional blessing, as the Apostle Paul; relates in 1 Corinthians 2 and 3, and throughout Romans thru Philemon, appeals to that residue of the natural man's orientation that the Believer is ever in need of renewing his mind away from, Rom. 12; Eph. 4.

    Come out of that already - into this grace wherein we stand; justified before God in His Son; at peace with Him.

    The New Man's is a Grace Orientation!

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