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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    She was referring to the outward man. According to her she has not sinned since she was saved years ago.

    Just ask her.
    Cool, I'm being talked about. I thought my ears were burning.

    No, Jerry. Sin is not imputed to the believer. You may forget where you are, or you may not know, or you may not be there at all....I wouldn't claim to say, but I am IN CHRIST and seated with Him in heavenly places. I am hid with Christ in God. All things are lawful for me because I am not under the Law.

    To put it in layman's terms, I have moved into the big house...I'm no longer a person of the streets.


    Now, if you want to discuss faults, I have plenty. What is wonderful about the liberty we have in Christ Jesus is that satan (and others who seek to accuse) have no grounds for their accusations. Guilt trips are for those who doubt our Lord's work on the cross.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Wow, two years ago. I was a feisty thing, wasn't I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Unfortunately, I have so many faults that I can't keep up with them all. However, my wife does her best to help me remember them all.

    While I have your attention I would appreciate your opinion on the following:

    The Lord Jesus' words to the Jews who lived under the law indicate that they were saved by faith alone:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

    In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

    In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

    "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

    Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life.

    Do you agree with that?
    I won't argue with scripture, but I'm thinking you're forgetting what comes later in that chapter.

    John 5:28-29
    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    I see a lot of things that are different before the Lord went to the cross. What I don't see in the verse you quote is belief in the death, burial, and resurrection. Why is that?

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  7. #34
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Are you not aware that gloydaz says that the Bible teaches that the saved cannot sin? She also says that since she was saved years ago that she has not sinned since then.

    That is why I asked her if she sinned when she said nasty things to you. In reply, she said that she was just joking!
    I was joking about saying nasty things to Danoh. It wasn't nasty to give my opinion of God's UNtruth, which is what I was talking to him about in the first place. Sometimes, Jerry, you remind me of someone who only sees what he wants to see. Hmm....who might that be?

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Cool, I'm being talked about. I thought my ears were burning.

    No, Jerry. Sin is not imputed to the believer. You may forget where you are, or you may not know, or you may not be there at all....I wouldn't claim to say, but I am IN CHRIST and seated with Him in heavenly places. I am hid with Christ in God. All things are lawful for me because I am not under the Law.

    To put it in layman's terms, I have moved into the big house...I'm no longer a person of the streets.

    Now, if you want to discuss faults, I have plenty. What is wonderful about the liberty we have in Christ Jesus is that satan (and others who seek to accuse) have no grounds for their accusations. Guilt trips are for those who doubt our Lord's work on the cross.
    I am not talking about whether sin is imputed to you.

    Instead, are you saying that you have sinned since you were saved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    But for one remark of hers; I took all the rest as her ribbing me.

    The one exception, I took as her differing with what she understood I was saying in contrast to how she understood that particular issue.

    At which point, I smiled, thinking, "okay, she's off there" lol

    As for the other; if she was referring to the inward man; I'd have to agree with her - God's new creature in His Son is incapable of sin.

    These issues all boil down to three issues - the Mystery distinction; its life that now is; and towards its impact not only on the Mystery's ultimate purpose, but given what said ultimate purpose.

    Grace people tend to over focus on the first, far too less on the second, when we do; the third barely emphasized much at all.

    In a sense, odd, in that the mind tends to go from some kind of end result in mind, to its particulars; that from them it might moved forward toward said end result; said end result; its mark to press toward.

    This impacts our understanding, and thus, our respective differences in understanding as to the first issue.

    But that is another thread.


    Attachment 19855



    yes, i made the point before that anti MAD or anti Paul folks seem to jump to 'you said you don't sin anymore' - from one extreme to the other, forgetting everything Paul preaches-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I am not talking about whether sin is imputed to you.

    Instead, are you saying that you have sinned since you were saved?
    I am not under the law. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    You want to discard the verse that says sin is not imputed to me, so you can then stand there and accuse me of sin? Really? I think you're working for the wrong side on this one, Jerry. Have you no faith in what Jesus did on the cross?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I won't argue with scripture, but I'm thinking you're forgetting what comes later in that chapter.

    John 5:28-29
    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    I see a lot of things that are different before the Lord went to the cross. What I don't see in the verse you quote is belief in the death, burial, and resurrection. Why is that?
    Of course you just ignore the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24. I guess that you think if you just ignore those words it is just as good as answering them.

    I will answer the verse you quoted. In order to do good one must work the works of God:

    "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn.6:28-29).

    Now if I understand you correctly the Lord Jesus' words at John 5:24 are not in regard being saved because it says nothing about "belief in the death, burial, and resurrection."

    So even though the Lord Jesus says that those who believe have eternal life and have passed from death to life you say those believers are not saved.

    And what do you say about these words:

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Attachment 19855



    yes, i made the point before that anti MAD or anti Paul folks seem to jump to 'you said you don't sin anymore' - from one extreme to the other, forgetting everything Paul preaches-
    Let's face it....only man can be so foolish. In God's eyes, we are either saints or sinners...righteous or unrighteous....lost or saved.

    Romans 8:33-34
    Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You want to discard the verse that says sin is not imputed to me, so you can then stand there and accuse me of sin?
    I said this is not about whether or not sin is imputed to you or not. Instead, it is about whether or not you have sinned since you were saved.

    And you did not answer this question:

    Instead, are you saying that you have sinned since you were saved?

    This is a simple question so you should have no problem answering it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Of course you just ignore the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24. I guess that you think if you just ignore those words it is just as good as answering them.

    I will answer the verse you quoted. In order to do good one must work the works of God:

    "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn.6:28-29).

    Now if I understand you correctly the Lord Jesus' words at John 5:24 are not in regard being saved because it says nothing about "belief in the death, burial, and resurrection."

    So even though the Lord Jesus says that those who believe have eternal life and have passed from death to life you say those believers are not saved.

    And what do you say about these words:

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
    Jerry, I realize you have gone to the weakest link hoping to prove what you cannot seem to prove to those who are more knowledgeable than I am, but I am not going to play. I don't know....honestly, I don't. I have tried to read all sides on this but it simply isn't clear to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Jerry, I realize you have gone to the weakest link hoping to prove what you cannot seem to prove to those who are more knowledgeable than I am, but I am not going to play. I don't know....honestly, I don't. I have tried to read all sides on this but it simply isn't clear to me.
    Usually you are the first to give your interpretation of the meaning of verses. All of a sudden all of that has changed and now you want no part of the verses which I quoted.

    These words here could not be any plainer but you say what is said here is not clear to you:

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

    What about those words do you not understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I said this is not about whether or not sin is imputed to you or not. Instead, it is about whether or not you have sinned since you were saved.

    And you did not answer this question:

    Instead, are you saying that you have sinned since you were saved?

    This is a simple question so you should have no problem answering it.
    And my answer is simple. You just don't like my answer. You tell me I cannot answer your question as asked. You take away the correct answer and expect me to answer without the correct answer being there. Sink or swim? "No, you can't choose swim it's not about swimming", (says Jerry).


    I have not sinned BECAUSE I am dead to sin.....because I am no longer a son of Adam....sin is not on the table. I am a new creature...created IN CHRIST JESUS. I am not under the law. So, I don't give a rip if you say "this is not about whether or not sin is imputed", BECAUSE it IS about whether sin is imputed. Your personal translation of the Bible and your putting verses off limits is the most ridiculous thing I have witnessed on this site (well, except for God's UNtruth and her ignorance). God says there is no sin in Christ, and I am in Christ. You don't believe that, do you? You don't understand that we are IN CHRIST JESUS.

    Satan is the accuser of the brethren. Why are you working for him?

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  22. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Usually you are the first to give your interpretation of the meaning of verses. All of a sudden all of that has changed and now you want no part of the verses which I quoted.

    These words here could not be any plainer but you say what is said here is not clear to you:

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

    What about those words do you not understand?
    Excuse me, blowhard Jerry, but I'm sick of your brow beating. You do this every single time I try to post. You're a bully...plain and simple.


    I give my "interpretation" on those things I feel sure of, and the only thing I'm sure of at the moment is you're a big angry man waving his fist in the air shouting out a verse. One post after the other after the other, and you actually expect an answer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Excuse me, blowhard Jerry, but I'm sick of your brow beating. You do this every single time I try to post. You're a bully...plain and simple.


    I give my "interpretation" on those things I feel sure of, and the only thing I'm sure of at the moment is you're a big angry man waving his fist in the air shouting out a verse. One post after the other after the other, and you actually expect an answer?
    Its a shame to have to watch you go through this at the hands of someone who should know better by now.

    His is the very spirit that ripped apart the Grace Movement years ago.

    So much so, that he may not take my words as his shame, that Christ might be everything.

    His reputation in this preceded him before I ever even knew of this site.

    Knowing this, I gave him the benefit of the doubt to no avail.

    Knowing this, I shall continue to.

    I would suggest you do the same, for Christ's sake.

    Otherwise, the legalism that so has a hold on him will only wax worse in its cancerous impact on you.

    When instead, you could do with it what we have not only been called to, but have been fully enabled to.

    Forgive one another, not based on merit, but in its absence - as God, for Christ sake for gave us - in the absence of our merit.

    Such individuals can be toxic should we take our eye off the mark of the prize of the high calling that we have in Christ Jesus; ours but to access during such disappointing moments.

    Dear precious sister in our Lord in this, your hurtful moment - in this, our hurtful moment with you and for you - remember the words of our pattern in Philippians 3:

    14. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
    15. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
    16. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

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